Tu es Petrus….

I must say that Catholics know how to put on a show. If they’d only give up on the guitars and the use of native languages, I’d be inclined both to drop the CofE and to stop dithering about Orthodoxy. Even the outrageous claim, starting at 14:48, is made almost reasonable in that priest’s voice, and with Mozart to accompany.

3 responses to “Tu es Petrus….

  1. Agreed.

    And it is not logical to have a universal (i.e. “Catholic”) Church without a unifying language. How are priests and so on to act as one – if they have no common language, either for speech, or for canon law and theology?

    Engish can not be that langauge – it is the langauge of some powers of this world, but not others (therefore to have it as the unifying language would be seen as bias). Latin is not the language of any of the secular powers. And Latin is the language of thousands of years of Church scholarship (not just in theology – but in such things as philosophy and law also), to cut the Church off from Latin is to cut it off from its own roots. As with a tree cut from its roots – the Church must die if cut from its roots.

    Also to use the “local language” raises the problem of “which local language?” In many nations there is more than one language – which language should be used?

    None of the documents of Vatican Two actually said that Latin was banned (or anything like that) – yet in the late 1960s teaching (even in Rome) in Latin suddenly stopped.

    Like all ancient insitutions the Roman Catholic Church has been responsible for evil as well as good – but it would be a dreadful pity if it were to perish (taking its ritual, art and philosophy with it) . And the Roman Catholic Church can only survive if it returns to Latin.

  2. Julie near Chicago

    “Vatican II changed everything that was right about Catholicism and nothing that was wrong.”
    –Fictional lady lawyer in NYC, of distinctly Italian Catholic extraction. From a marvelous series about Assistant D.A. Butch Karp (non-observant but not “deracinated” Jew) and his wife, Marlene Ciampi (the lady lawyer), ghost-written by Michael Gruber for his cousin (and former NYC prosecutor, I believe), Robert K. Tanenbaum.

    Aside: The cousins had a falling-out somewhere around book 13 or 14. Somebody else took over the ghost-writing and the series went to pot. Before that, serious, funny and fascinating. Suggest starting with Book 2–Book 1, /No Lesser Plea/, is quite good but still it’s a learning experience for the writer(s) and lacks the humour and some of the fascination. Read it after four or so of the later ones.

  3. It is a good line Julie – and there is a lot of truth in it.

    If one thinks of things that were wrong with the Roman Catholic Church in the 1950s it is indeed hard to see what Vatican II did to help,

    The couple of anti Jewish words in the old mass were actually got rid of by Pope John XXIII before Vatican Two (which is why Benedict XVI confused the leftists when he said he not restoring the old mass – he was restoring the “John XXIII Mass”, it is different by a couple of words).

    Lack of oversight in relation to priests and children?

    Vatican II actually made oversight weaker (basically Bishops were left to their own devices) – made it less likely these things would come to light. Even Hollywood has the idea that this might be true – hence the film “Doubt”.

    Cerical celibacy (of the parish clergy – not of the monks and nuns, the “religious”)? Both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said it is a “matter of church discipline not of church doctrine” – when Popes say that I do not think it is a reach to say they mean “this is a mess – but I do not know what to do about it”.The Orthodox Church may well have got this right – rather a long number of centuries ago (although, yes, it got other important things wrong – such as the de facto paying for sacrements, which should be the ulitmate no-no).

    Vactican II certainly did not deal with why a maried (parish) clergy was wrong – they were too busy replaceing the study of theology in schools with finger painting (no I am not making that up). Not that was actually in Vatican II – but the “spirit” of Vatican II for every dumb modernisation from getting rid of the study of the catechism in schools. “It is too hard for the children” – you mean it is not just made up of finger painting with “death to the rich” and “death to Western Imperialism” put in for the more “intellectual” of the children?

    Even my old Anglican manual (“The Catholic Religion” by Vernon Stanley) would have been consided too close to Catholic by the “Liberation Theology” – “Collective Salvation” types who took so much power in the Roman Catholic Church (the people who made friends with the SDS – Weathermen in the United States, and the IRA in Ireland)

    It is something of a miricle (who knows – perhaps I a real miricle) that the Roman Catholic Church is somehow dragging itself back from all this crazyness. Some other Churches are not.

    But there is a long way to go.

    For example, is opposition to abortion a basic principle or is it not?

    If it is not – then the march for life every years is a bit pointless (and the media are right to ignore these tens of thousands of people marching).

    But if it is a basic principle – why are people like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden allowed into Churches?

    They only reason they should be allowed in a Church (if it is a basic principle) is to publically repent.

    “Ah, but Paul what principles does the Anglican Church have these days?”

    I think I will take the Fifth on that.