State-Regulation of the British Press: So What?

State-Regulation of the British Press: So What?
By Sean Gabb
Published in The Libertarian Enterprise
25th November 2012

At the moment in England, our masters and their clients are discussing censorship of the newspaper press. After months of submissions, a government inquiry into newspaper conduct has finished, and its report will almost certainly call for what is called “a rule-based framework of regulation.” The surface argument is between those who want controls backed by the law, and those who want “voluntary self-regulation.” No one who matters, though, disputes that something must be done.

This means that something will be done. And this something will be formal censorship. Even if we start out with one of the minimal options, the desired end is plain. This is for newspapers to be brought under the same formal control as the broadcast media. They will be licensed. They will be subject to various forms of prior restraint. There will be review and complaints procedures for articles already published. The whole process will be managed by the usual ruling class apparatchiks, all on vast salaries, and all enforcing conformity to the usual totalitarian PC.

Now, I know that my duty as a libertarian is to start jumping up and down in defence of our free press. And I will go through the motions. We already have too many controls in this country on what can be published. These are generally used to keep wrongdoing by the rich and powerful from the public eye – that, or to keep us from knowing the truth about the caring, sharing, multi-cultural paradise that is modern England. The effect of more control will be to block future exposure of fraud and bribe-taking by Members of Parliament. Oh – and there is the matter of those ruling class salaries and pensions. I don’t know about you, but the great army in modern England of looters in suits – with their low-grade intellects and first-class connections, and their £400,000 salaries at my expense, and their endless public moralising about how everyone else should be made to live – they really get on my tits. Anything that means more for these, or more of these, gets my thumb straight in the down position.

This being said, how much difference will actual censorship make to the quality of investigation and news reporting in the newspapers? In a sense, the question answers itself. If it were likely to make no difference, why bother discussing it? If true, however, this answer is of limited value. I admit that, in the past few years, the newspapers have brought down scumbag after scumbag. The most recent example is Denis Macshane, a Labour MP and former Minister who was shown to have milked his expenses by about as much as many of his electors earn in a lifetime of toil. Then there was David Laws, forced to resign as a Minister when it came out that he was getting the taxpayers to underwrite his relationship with his boyfriend – I notice, by the way, he’s a Minister again. Or there was Liam Fox, also forced out of office when we learned about the very fishy dealings of his close friend.

Never mind whether The Sun newspaper hacked the mobile telephones of various entertainment celebrities – it strikes me as obvious that the purpose of “regulation” will be to stop future embarrassments like the cases given above.

And that’s about the limit of the value we get from the newspapers. I suppose they’re worth defending for that limited value. But it’s hardly worth rolling out long quotes from John Milton and John Stuart Mill. The cases given above are exceptions to the general rule, which is for the newspapers to collaborate in hiding – or simply never to notice – wrongdoing in high places. Look at these cases:

1. In 2007, the BBC announced that, following a meeting with 28 “top environmental scientists” they year before, it would no longer pretend to give balanced coverage of the debate on man-made climate change. Instead, it would become a naked propagandist for the global warming scam. No salaried newspaper reporter bothered to ask who these 28 experts were, and what were their scientific credentials. It took five years before an independent blogger, Tony Newbery, got round to putting in a Freedom of Information request for the names of these experts. When the BBC sent a team of lawyers into action to get a biased tribunal to slap this request down, it was another blogger, Maurizio Morabito (omnologos), who dug round the Web until he found the full list, and showed that these 28 experts were mostly the usual riders on the global warming bandwagon. It became plain that the BBC, which is “public service broadcaster” with a legal duty of impartiality, was up to its neck in a gigantic intellectual fraud.

After the event, Melanie Phillips wrote a nice article about all this in The Daily Mail. It would have been a nicer article, of course, if she and her friends had lifted so much as a finger of their own to expose the fraud.

2. Cyril Smith was a Liberal Party politician, and supposedly the fattest Member of Parliament in history. He was also a pederast with a taste for beating young boys. In 1991, I had dinner with a retired Special Branch officer. He told me how, in 1977, the Rochdale police had assembled a dossier of evidence against the MP – systematic abuse of homeless boys in a hostel he’d helped found. However, the man was Chief Liberal Whip at the time, and the Liberals were in an informal coalition with a minority Labour Government. My friend was given the job of driving up to Rochdale to confiscate the dossier, and tell the local police to mind their own business in future.

I thought this was very amusing, but only half believed it. The Internet was still in the future, and, however crass their actions, I still took it for granted that England was ruled by men of reasonably spotless integrity. Well, Cyril Smith died in 2010, and it came out that he really had been beating and – so far as his shape allowed – buggering every boy who fell into his clutches.

Not a peep, while he lived, in the mainstream media, of course. So much for the Fourth Estate of the Realm!

3. I suppose I should mention the Jimmy Savile scandal. But this has been done to death, and you need to be very American indeed not to have heard something about it. Again, though, it was pretty common knowledge that he was partial to underage girls. I heard about it when I was a schoolboy. He always looked like a dirty old man. Despite this, when he died in 2011, the newspaper press went into a chorus of his praises. It took a whole year for him to be demoted to his current – though temporary – status of most prolific sex offender in history.

More important, though, than the details of what Jimmy Savile might or might not have done in a caravan in Skegness c.1973 is what the sudden eruption of the scandal wiped from all the newspapers. Fringe organisations like the British National Party had long been pointing to a culture of sexual predation among Pakistani Moslems in the North of England. There were whole gangs of these people involved in the kidnap and rape of white working class girls. The police had ignored every complaint. Ditto local authorities. Anyone who complained too loudly was called a racist and threatened with formal or informal punishments. Finally, the scale of criminality reached a point where the authorities were forced to act. A series of trials in the first half of 2012 provided chapter and verse evidence about the real nature of race relations in England. This had to be reported by the newspapers and commented on by its appointed writers. They even had to report police claims that one murdered white girl had been disposed of in a mincing machine and sold as doner kebabs.

Very convenient, don’t you think, that the stuttering discussion of race and immigration all this forced the authorities into allowing was immediately smothered by full spectrum coverage of the alleged crimes of the late Jimmy Savile?

I could go on. I believe that the transfer of Hong Kong was set in motion, back in 1982, by a few London banks that wanted privileged access to the China market. I could give you the names of the Cabinet Ministers who were bribed into beginning a transfer that no one in Peking had asked for. But they are still alive and very rich, so I won’t. I believe that William Hague was either bribed or blackmailed by the Americans into losing the 2001 general election to Labour – Tony Blair having been regarded as more reliably pro-American. I believe many other things. Just because I have no evidence for them doesn’t make them untrue. Just because some of them sound outlandish doesn’t make me mad. Bearing in mind what we know the newspapers haven’t reported, or have conspired to cover up, all of the above and much more beside is conceivably true.

And I’m not the only man in England to have noticed the utter worthlessness of the newspapers. Look at these sales figures:

Title 2012 2000
The Sun 2,582,301 3,557,336
Daily Mail 1,945,496 2,353,915
Daily Mirror 1,102,810 2,270,543
Daily Telegraph 578,774 1,039,749
Daily Express 577,543 1,050,846
The Times 397,549 726,349
Financial Times 316,493 435,478
Daily Record 291,825 626,646
The Guardian 215,988 401,560
The Independent 105,160 222,106

Source: Adapted from Wikipedia

Yes, censorship is always bad, and that’s what the ruling class is talking about. But why go through more than the motions in defence of a newspaper press as worthless and generally corrupt as the one we have? And, of course, censored or otherwise, there soon won’t be much of a newspaper press in England to defend or attack.

39 responses to “State-Regulation of the British Press: So What?

  1. It is possible to find many points of view in the various British newspapers (unlike the United States – which has a much more establishmentarian left press) – including people (such as Christopher Booker in the Sunday Telegraph) who attack the C02 theory of globel warming.

    Of course the press could be better (much better) – but the note of sneering in the above article by Sean, is uncalled for.

    The libel laws are a problem – and I doubt that the comming report will suggest reform of them. Instead (as Sean quite rightly suggests) it will, most likely, demand even more control of the press.

    This should, of course, be opposed.

    “Hacking” is already illegal, and I wonder why the BBC (and so on) is so interested in News International titles involved in it and so uninterested the Mirror group newspapers (and the Guardian) which also engaged in it.

    There is no need for more laws. Still less for, highly selective, moral outrage.

    On the newspaper circulation figures……

    The Financial Times (that weird combination of business news and leftist politics) does indeed claim a circulation of hundreds of thousands (although even they do not claim to sell over 300 thousand copies) – but they make this claim by adding together all the different newspapers they produce around the world – on the grounds that they have the title “Financial Times”.

    The actual thing on sale in Britain has a circulation of about 50 thousand.

  2. Well, in the general I am inclined (as I said in another thread) to agree with Sean. It is sort of similar to my libertarian insistence that Marxists should be free to speak; I absolutely defend that right, but that doesn’t mean I support what they have to say.

    I am dubious as to the more conspiratorial assertions though. I am very sceptical that Hague was bribed to throw an election. Neither do I think that the Savilocalypse was anything to do with burying “Muslim Grooming”. In fact, slightly off topic, I would go so far as to say that the “Muslim Grooming” panic- another case of a few dirty old men finding some easy and willing girls, nothing more- is just part of the same moral panic. Some people prefer to find foreigners to despise, that’s all. I find it wryly amusing that so far as I can see, the type of people who get most upset about this “muslim grooming” tend to be those who otherwise would disparage such girls as chav-ish slags, pramfaces on council estates, etc. Suddenly when it’s the muzzies involved and tied into the paedopanic, we get this Maiden Tribute Of Babylon stuff come up; our pure virginal maidens being kidnapped by swarthy foreigners. Sigh.

    Anyway, back with the press. I’m primarily concerned at the moment that this will be an excuse for a more general censorship of, particularly, the internet, bloggers and “citizen journalists”. The Press themselves will not suffer from it. They are part of the ruling clique, and this spat is more like a falling out between the crusty gents at the Golf Club. But it will be used as leverage for more control, in some manner. That should be our main concern. I doubt that Paul “bikini bodies” Dacre is much worried. The rest of us should be.

  3. Must have skipped past this bit-

    They even had to report police claims that one murdered white girl had been disposed of in a mincing machine and sold as doner kebabs.

    This is the typical kind of lurid tale that circulates during moral panics. Besides all else, anyone with a certain sense of the ghoulish (that’ll be me then) knows that humans taste like pork, not lamb. Hence, “long pig”.

  4. Ian B, I knew a policeman from the North West of England and he privately told me that he thought that a missing girl in Blackpool had been murdered and chopped up and sold in a fast food shop. He said that he couldn’t prove it but was convinced. Whether he was right or not I do not know but he certainly didn’t appear to be exhibiting any symptoms of moral panic. (and frankly, those kebabs are mystery meat anyway, they could be literally any sort of meat and we would never realise.)

  5. People become convinced of all kinds of things. That’s why when we want to get as close to the truth as possible, we use constraining epistemologies; legal systems, the scientific method, etc. The basic rule is, if you can’t prove something to anyone else, you can’t prove it to yourself either, however convinced you may be of it.

    In practical terms; the mincing machine will mince up muscle. It won’t get rid of the skull and skeleton etc, or the entrails. It would be a complete waste of time to then dispose of the meat by selling it in fast food products. You’re disposing of a corpse; you want to risk making somebody ill, or them just thinking there’s something funny with the “meat” curry and phoning environmental health?

    People are fascinated by the macabre. What’s delicious about the Sweeney Todd tale isn’t the killings, it’s the selling them in meat pies part. The generalised semi-humorous distrust of what’s in kebab meat, burgers, cheap curries etc is a natural breeding ground for such suspicions.

    Really, you’ve only got to look at the absurd claims about Savile being made to see the process. There is a curious thing that normally, people disbelieve something the more extreme it is- but if it titillates, the opposite is true, and people assign more credibility to the more extreme stories.

  6. One of your boldest statements read thus far (although I’m something of a newbie on this site). Additionally, I really do feel that at this particular moment in English history, a degree of sneering in regard to each of the issues raised is more than called for. Nothing that has been written, or spoken, in reasonable language that opposes the way the social status quo has been deliberately moved in the UK, has impacted the minds of our politicians very much. So, I feel quite certain that a degree of contemptuous sneering will attract little attention. Those who’ve a vested interest in controlling freedom of thought and speech in this country are winning the fight hands down… and they know it. This state of affairs has come to pass not only on behalf of banksters and other corporate cash addicts. Many more ordinary souls have, without them quite knowing it, accepted all that’s been done in their name because of their own sad need to be very rich or very famous. An ignored form of illness in fact. A modern-day medical condition it seems to me being driven by a mortal fear of perceived failure. Driven too, in my opinion at least, by our absurd celebrity culture which in turn is sponsored by all brands of our shortsighted mainstream media.

    The bell has just sounded for the last round, so I’ll loudly applaud anyone who adds a sneer or two. At this late stage in the game there’s nothing to lose. Very sadly I’m afraid, the UK is no longer motoring to the edge of a precipice – she’s gone over the edge now and will eventually turn over before breaking in two… just like the also once ‘too proud’ Titanic. Of course, for some, it will all depend on how they view the bottom compared to the top. Some people of always strived to reach higher than others.

    On a brighter note, one of our English soldiers remains engaged in hand to hand combat. I’ve given up the struggle and started making plans for survival but he hasn’t. I’ve notice by the bad press he’s getting recently that Nigel Farage is really beginning to get up the noses of all those nice non-elected persons being ludicrously well paid to do very little in the EU’s main stronghold. Precisely in the way set out above, thousands of his enemies’s troops are already well entrenched. Well briefed too and at the tax-payers expense. Naturally, they’ve installed the machinery needed to retain themselves in a everlasting win-win position.

    With regard to the JS scandal, I completely agree with your notion. I can see no other explanation why it’s been decided to dredge it all up at this particular time. There seems little need for urgency given that the man’s already dead and, who knows, maybe already doing time for his earthly sins. For me, it all too conveniently forms a very effective smoke-screen to cover over the self-evident horrors of known Muslim grooming. In addition – although one must be careful here – JS was, for all his alleged sexual problems, an English man. Whilst all those currently banged-up for crimes against a load of English children, children already badly damaged by the current political situation, are supposed to be our invited and ‘welcome’ guests. I may be wrong but there is a difference… is there not?

    In support of Mr Ingoldby, who states very clearly that the policeman friend of his ‘thought‘ that one rape victim had actually been ‘chopped up‘ (a butchering process) before being cooked. So the comment made when refuting the possibility of such a thing ever happening by claiming that human flesh can’t be used in a kebab, due to bone fragments etc – does not quite work for me.

    Concerning lurid tales. Nothing can ever be as lurid as the human condition. Monsters one moment, Saints the next. Ah well.

  7. The trouble with Sean “liking lurid tales” is that he reports them as if they were true.The Haig-was-bribed-to-throw-the-election stuff is just one of many.

    Mixing the true with the false discredits the true. It is an old leftist tactic – set up a front organisation (or false individual) and have them make absurd claims against the left and their friends – but also make true claims. Then when the false claims are exposed the true claims are also discredited – even when made by honest foes of the left.

    Of course, in Sean’s case, it is not really some dark plot to make the BBC (or Mr Haig) look good by making absurd charges against them (thus discrediting true charges) it is just love of naughtynes, his love of “lurid tales”, that is at work.

  8. So the comment made when refuting the possibility of such a thing ever happening by claiming that human flesh can’t be used in a kebab, due to bone fragments etc – does not quite work for me.

    This is why both the scientific method prefers the null hypothesis and the law presumes innocence. Human beings are intrinsically gullible and will believe any old claptrap.

  9. I also think it is rather improbable that a “murdered white girl” had been disposed of in a minching-machine and sold as doner kebabs. Such individuals “may” have been “disposed of”, but I doubt in this way. One is quite prepared to believe that some “young white girls” have been either induced or abducted into becoming sex slaves for “Asian” (what a slur on the entire list of “Asian” races that must be, then?) gangs from a certain one or two countries we can’t be allowed to name here, and that many may have come to some harm, and that the “Police” now find it dangerous and inconvenient and labour-intensive to deal with these reports. But there is no “hard evidence” it seems, that they have been consumed. The Koran, however, does deal at length with the agrred terms of use of “slaves, concubines and (what I would term) women and girls captured from the enemy”.

    Point (1): “whites”, not being of the “Ummah” but instead of the “Dhimmah”, would be unclean, even if virgin girls and even if dead. These could not religio-legally be eaten by Muslims, who one presumes would otherwise be able and allowed to purchase and eat doner kebabs made by their friends or elsewhere, in such things as “Turkish” takeaways (I’m not getting at Turks here, who anyway are honourary “Europeans” in some senses!)

    Point (2): It is stated on good authority (not by me I hasten to add!) that human flesh tastes strongly of pork. Indeed, cannibal tribes in New Guinea, when interrogated about this matter by the Victorians, cheerfully referred to human meat as something translating as “Long Pig”. Doner kebabs are what in Lebanon is called “sharr-/warr_ma”, and are always made with lamb, or if desperate, then mutton. Very occasionally goat may be used. These taste of course quite different from pork.

    Pooint (3): The meat for the above dish in (2) is not minced at all, but thinly sliced and compressed into a cylinder, before grilling.

  10. The decline of secular Turkish nationalism, and the rise of Pan Islam in Turkey, has been one of the more depressing developments in the Middle East in recent years – and it does not only hit the Middle East, it hits, for example, Germany (where there is a large Turkish population – which now, more and more, sees itself as an Islamic population).

    The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is (I am told) a throw back to old style Turkish secular nationalism. However, I doubt it can last in this form – as it depends on (increasingly Islamist) Turkey.

    However, I dout that any of these folk will actually be eating people – human flesh is “forbidden” under Islamic law.

  11. Oh God Mr Davies, all that cannibal stuff is starting to worry me.

    Of course I too can’t buy the kebab story (nor the Haig bit); not without a measure of supporting evidence at least. There’s a catch however. Rochdale council earlier this year held an in-depth enquiry into the entire wretched grooming affair after they’d been accused of a cover-up. It was initially announced that the findings would be made available for Joe Public’s perusal. So, as soon as I found out the findings had been written up, I wrote asking for a copy. I received a one line reply informing me that to release them would not be in the public interest. Duh!

    Now, being that their own employees must have worked on the report and that they are also members of the wider public, and because tongues wag, I do feel fairly confident that already a few dozen locals already know what was in the report. Whatever they were I can only ‘assume’ that they are so obscene that the details can’t possibly be revealed without risking public anger. So the lurid stories that Dr Gabb enjoys so much he’ll no doubt get to read one day.

    This stuff might be all to do with cooked meats but the entire deal smells very fishy.

  12. Paul Marks:
    William (Field Marshal?) “Haig”–Liars led by Donkeys?

    The Unconcious in action

  13. Ian B, people may ‘believe any old claptrap’, but people are also capable of the most remarkable depravity. I suggest that you do not dismiss a macabre possibility purely on the grounds that it is macabre.

    The stories about what gangs of Pakistani men were systematically doing to White girls were so dismissed for a long time and even now are minimised as just ‘another model’ of abuse by those appointed to investigate and report on such matters. Afterall, we wouldn’t want to be so naive as to believe such salacious stories should we? Except that in this case they happen to be true.

  14. You should be sceptical of anything for which there is no evidence, and the more remarkable it is, the more sceptical you should be. If I claim I was in the Holy Sepulchre churchyard having a cigarette last tuesday, that may or may not be true, but it is not very remarkable so you would be reasonable to accept it on my word. If I said that while I was there I saw a Satanic ritual in which the corpse was cannibalistically consumed, you should demand much more evidence before accepting what I said at face value.

    A bunch of Pakistani beta males who found some underage girls willing to have sex with them is a long way from the purported systematic Muslim conspiracy, and even further from corpses minced up and sold as fast food. Exercise caution.

    To go back to the practicalities; a human body is about 40% meat, and a juvenile girl probably less. The rest is bones, fat, organs, entrails. If you can dispose of all that, there is little merit to selling the muscle as meat. It has “urban legend” written all over it. And a nasty whiff of The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion, except these days it’s the Muslims rather than the Jews.

    • “You should be sceptical of anything for which there is no evidence, and the more remarkable it is, the more sceptical you should be. If I claim I was in the Holy Sepulchre churchyard having a cigarette last tuesday, that may or may not be true, but it is not very remarkable so you would be reasonable to accept it on my word. If I said that while I was there I saw a Satanic ritual in which the corpse was cannibalistically consumed, you should demand much more evidence before accepting what I said at face value.”

      That’s a very nice statement of true epistemology. All I can say in mitigation is that I never claimed there WAS cannibalism in the North of England. I only mentioned it because I have a taste for the macabre that I frequently have trouble repressing. You should read some of my novels!

  15. Ian: The difference between your first and second statements is in what they entail rather than the likehood of either event having happened. To believe you sat in a churchyard is to believe in something that does not require a large-scale revision of “shared” reality. If we lived in a society where satanic cannibal sacrifice rituals openly took place all the time and all over the place, no more additional proof would be required to accept your second statement than would is required to accept your first, ie we’ll take your word for it.

  16. I missed the Haig bit.

    As for Pan Islam – yes we are back to that (in bubbles up every century or so).

    Think “Greenmantle”.

    Although this time – Greenmantle with nukes.

    The Shia 12ers believe in the Hidden Iman – which the “hasterners” (many of whom are intelligent, otherwise rational, people) believe it is their religious duty to bring forward by spreading “fire and blood” all over the world.

    However, the Sunni also have a version of this – with their guy-on-the-white-horse, being “the Mahdi”.

    Again a lot otherwise sane and rational Sunni believe in this.

    And the Sunni have got their eye on nukes that already exist.

    The Pakistani nukes.

    Of course the Shia would like those as well – in case the Iranian developers keep having fatal accidents.

    Still back in to the eye (or rather the heart) of the storm in January.

    “You are insane Paul”.

    Quite possibly.

    But it is no fun waiting for the City of London to collapse..

    It will – but it will be boring.

    Just a load of idiots running round talking about “lack of regulations” (there are thousands of page of regs) and “lack of monetary stimulus” (as they drown in funny money from the Bank of England).

    I would rather face the Islamists – their stuff about “Hidden Iman” (the “Party of God” over in Lebanon any Syria) and “the Mahdi” (Hamas and co) is actually less insane than the stuff I hear here on the financial reports.

    For example another 44 billion Euros thrown down the drain in Greece today – and the markets are pleased.

  17. Oh sorry – by “Haig bit” I thought you meant that Sean had written about General Haig (hence your ref to “Lions Led By …”) I had already covered the stuff Sean came out with on William Haig (hardly my favourate person – but he is innocent of this charge at least).

    As for Hong Kong – the lease on everything bar Hong Kong island itself came to an end in 1997.

    Hard to see how Hong Kong island could have just carried on its own – even if China (unlike Britain – China has a vast military) would have tolerated it.

    Which they would not have done.

    More sillyness for the United States also.

    Talk of the ratio of “spending cuts to tax increases”.

    There will be no cut in government spending.

    There will be no cut in government spending.

    There will be no cut in government spending.

    Just compare Amercan government spending in 2013 to American government spending in 2012.

    Still the talk is useful.

    Anyone who talks of “the spending cuts” or “the ratio to of spending cuts to tax increases” as if there actually is a cut in government spending – shows themselves to be liar.

    Broadcasters like Bloomberg or CNBC – or publications like the Economist magazine, as soon as they claim there has been a “deal of revenue increases for spending cuts” they will stand exposed as liars.

  18. Paul:
    My rather obscure comment was about the Unconscious mind in action in as much as the previous postings were about alleged moslem cannibalism and your posting mentioned “pan” islam–and in your post above you say this “bubbles” up every so often.
    Also your dislike of William Hague (=Ague+H for?…) who(m?) you compound with the late unlamented WW1 Field Marshal Haig also mentioned in several recent postings on other topics.

    Forgive if my meaning was not clear.

  19. Speaking as a someone from the good old U.S. of A, I really don’t find much difference between yours and our prevailing views predicated by media. We hear a lot of dispersions cast against us by Europeans, many of which are likely true by more than just a kernel and parroted by every intellectual snob spouting that our society ought to behave in a more “continental” fashion, but the truth is that, particularly in terms of English vs. American culture, we’re remarkably similar, and I mean that as a slight against you. In any case, my response to the above article is that it’s absolutely spot on. Official censorship through the regulation of media is a terrifyingly dangerous tool that’s already employed, often, and has been throughout history. Of course, it’s troubling whenever they attempt to ramp it up, but please dispense with any illusions that it’s anything other than more of the status quo. Newspapers, along with every form of sanctioned media are already controlled through regulation – that’s how and why they’re sanctioned in the first place. What’s infinitely more troubling are the broad, overreaching measures taken progressively to stifle individuals’ free speech over what has(had) become the new greater public source for exchange of views and information: the internet. The newspapers can say or not say whatever they want; you can’t really control it, and they’re designed in such a way as to control us, so it hardly warrants the outcry of, say, some random person 1,000 miles away from anywhere I’ve ever heard of clubbing and skinning alive a helpless little baby seal. What people should worry about protecting is their individual right to tell whichever group of bastards to #@*% off.

  20. Oh dear, Ian B, you are misrepresenting what happened when the Pakistani gangs deliberately preyed on underage White girls. To characterise that as ‘found some underage girls willing to have sex’ and to complain that people are talking about ‘conspiracies’ is an act of remarkable ignorance or of a surprising moral failure on your part.

    As to mincing a human body, it would be no more or less difficult than mincing a lamb or sheep. There are no real practical problems, purely moral ones. To try to claim that it is as unlikely as some sort of satanic ritual or whatever is just foolish on your part. We are not talking about complete absurdities here, young, underage White girls were drugged, raped and then killed, some of their bodies then disappearing. Those events did take place.

    And you dismiss it all as a case of some ‘beta males’ finding some young girls willing to have sex with them…….

  21. We are not talking about complete absurdities here, young, underage
    As to mincing a human body, it would be no more or less difficult than mincing a lamb or sheep

    Nobody minces lambs or sheep either. They are butchered, and they mince some of the meat. They do this because there is a market for it.

    What did your urban legendary pakistanis do with the head, skeleton, offal, etc? What benefit did Mohammed Todd get from mincing the meat, and what products did it go in? Burgers? No good, they’re beef. Nothing like human meat. Kebabs? No, as pointed out by David, that’s sliced and pressed lamb. Sausages? Pork products? Muslims? I worked with a devout muslim once who had worked in a pizza parlour and had a special deal with the boss that he never handled the ham etc. So, how are muslims getting rid of all this porky human flesh goodness? DId they sell it to infidel fast food joints? Does any of this make any sense?

    White girls were drugged, raped and then killed, some of their bodies then disappearing. Those events did take place.

    Really? The big court case on this so far was a bunch of sad pakistanis who fucked some underage girls. So- drugged, raped, murdered? Why? Evidence?

  22. The ‘legendary’ Pakistanis ran fast food shops and drugged and had sex with girls as young as eleven years old.

    You are pompously declaiming on matters on which you are clearly ignorant. How foolish of you.

    Just for starters, Google the names ‘Charlene Downes’ and ‘Paige Chivers’ then read this newspaper article

    Then, come back with some facetious nonsense trying to minimise the horror of it all………..

  23. You just referenced the Daily Mail, that’s an automatic lose.

    Besides which, nothing in that article at all supports your claim. You seem to be notably lacking in support for your belief in the selling of minced human flesh. You’ve got some men who had sex with some teenagers. That’s it, isn’t it?

  24. There is no evidence of cannibalism, which is forbidden under Islamic law anyway), but there is plenty of rape of infidels and the enslavement of infidels – both of which are not forbidden.

    Of course no Pakastani (or other Muslim) is under an obligation to do these things – if they wish to be kind and good they may be so (without any violation of Islamic law), but they do if they wish to do these things there right hand may take.

    The difficulty, for a kind and good Muslim, is as follows……

    Does he (and if we are talking about public action “he” is assumed) have the right to use force to stop other Muslims doing these things?

    Muhammed declared (more than once) that no believer may slay another believer for the sake of an unbeliever (in one thinks about it – this basic docrtine makes both the Iraq war and the Afghan war absurd, because these wars are based on the assumption that there can be lasting alliances, yet such an alliance with unbelievers against believers is forbidden by Islamic law). Nor shall any believer aid a nonbeliever against a believer.

    So a Muslim man may be very upset to hear the screams of an infidel girl (he may weep for her) – but to use violence against fellow believers (in order to save the girl) would seem to be forbidden.

    It is oddly like Thomas Hobbes’ attitude to the state.

    According to Hobbes one may defend one’s self against the state (he accepts that) – but one may not use force to defend anyone else who is attacked by the state.

    Of course that would tend to mean that one’s resistance to the state (if on is attacked) is doomed – if the rest of the population follow the doctrines of Thomas Hobbes.

    Of course Hobbes also denies there is any such thing as natural law ( right and wrong) apart from “will” – the will of the state and the will of God. Legal Positivism and Theological Positivism.

    Oddly similar to Islam – although the source may be John Calivin

    As for Pakistan itself…..

    Actually it was once a rather secular place – as recently as the 1960s there were widespread schools run by Christians missionaries and so on.

    Then the socialists attacked civil society (yes the socialists – not the Islamists at that time) closing Christian schools (on the grounds that they were private schools) and nationalising the major private companies (Kevin would have been delighted) – the soiclaists also started the nuclear weapons program (under the slogan “we will have the bomb – even if we have to eat grass!” not that the socialist leaders would be eating the grass of course…..).

    The socialists were overthrown in 1977 – but the new military regime (unlike the military regimes of the 1960s) made increasing Islamification a mark of Pakistan.

    Since then there has been a death spiral – with socialism on one side, and Islamism (including Islamic “social justice” teaching) on the other.

    I believe the Pakistan of the 1960s is gone – it will not return.

  25. The above should read “but if they do wish to do these things – their right hand may take….”

    By the way this does not violate the Pact of Umar (or course some Muslims reject the Pact of Umar as too soft – but that need not detain us).

    As the infidels (at least these in Britain) have not accepted the Pact of Umar – they (we) do not act as if we “feel ourselves subdued” and obey the various regulations.

    Although some of them are already enforced upon us (by chance) by secular law.

    For example, Islam (quite rightly) holds that any free man has a right to own weapons – infidels, under the Pact of Umar, are not free and (therefore) do not have any such right.

    For a Christian or a Jew to have a weapon is not acceptable – and British law basically enforces that.

    But for Muslims to be disamed is a deadly insult – fot it is treating them as slaves.

    So current British laws on weapons are not acceptable from the point of view of Islamic law.

    It is to be remembered that one of the key military advantages of Islam in the early days (against the Persian Empire and the Byzantine – and against Visigothinc Spain) is the return to the Classical world (Greek City States and Roman Republic) principle of all free men fight.

    Under the Roman Empire (and the Persian) only those in the service of the state fight – in peace time ordinary people are not even supposed to have weapons.

    This is one reason why a releatively small (at first) number of Muslims were able to overwhelm powers (Byzantine Empire, Persian Empire, Visigothic Spain) with large populations.

    They were faced with populations who were, basically, slaves already.

    “Everybody fights” – had not been the norm for centuries.

    Of course the Islamic legal attitude to land ownership (basically no real protection) meant that (contrary to BBC shows and the sillyness taught in modern universities) populations tended to decline over time.

    The massive rise in population in the Islamic world since the late 19th century has been under Western influence – it is not realy sustainable under Islamic law.

  26. Concerned Briton

    I find Ian B’s comments above particularly poor.

    Ian seems to believe that endemic abuse, rape, mental torture, drug addiction, violence and intimidation of young white teenage girls on “an industrial scale” by Pakistani males – who in all honesty in my opinion should not even be here in this country – is just a “moral panic”, like Tesco selling braziers to 9 year old girls or something.

    Ian says: “I would go so far as to say that the “Muslim Grooming” panic- another case of a few dirty old men finding some easy and willing girls, nothing more- is just part of the same moral panic. Some people prefer to find foreigners to despise, that’s all.”

    “Easy and willing girls”? “Nothing more?” Shameful.

    Maybe when or if it happening to his own daughter (and she maybe has an offspring by one of these people), he will take a different line of thought than the rather flippant dismissing of the parameters of these crimes and these people, which does set them apart from the rest.

    Maybe when it is put into context of what is going on in other parts of Europe, such as Oslo, it takes on another dimension on top.

    And nor are they all really “dirty old men” along the lines of Saville. I live in a northern town that is rife and primed with the types to be grooming. Numerous cases have been brought to light locally. They range from early to mid 20’s to late 50’s. It is often a business, one which has made them more money or equal money to drug dealing.

    There was even a BBC documentary about it (well, regarding a child in care and her life, of which this was briefly touched upon) which was shot a few miles away from my house. Then another was made in Blackburn by Panorama.

    To suggest that this “moral panic” is “no more or no less” than the random “dirty old men” stereotype of ‘white predators’ is really quite unbelievable.

    So, in some cases, repeatedly gang raping young girls, sometimes made to ‘service’ 40 men a night, for months or years, hooking some of them on drugs, turning them against their families and threatening to burn their houses down and hospitalise their families (if they ever go against them and go to the authorities) is the same thing as Jimmy Saville or some other B-list celeb groping at a pair of tits in the 1970’s, or some loner type in an isolated incident?

    As for quip about “some want foreigners to hate” – well seeing as the indigenous population in towns like mine are soon to be made a demographic minority (and will one day vanish completely), seeing as the place is rife with (Pakistani) drug dealers, (Pakistani) fraud, (Pakistani) voter fraud, and given that these particular minority of these unwanted interlopers are preying on the most vulnerable last vestiges of the white female youth – which have indeed often become products of the liberal-state and not exactly beacons of virtue – it is understandable that some people are sick and tired of these people taking the fucking piss out of us indigenous folk who are forced to be watching our country slip away in this disturbing manner (as a whole).

    They are part of this unwanted, never asked for situation, so of course it will bring in a different dimension for many people, and quite frankly I don’t particularly blame them. If the shoe was on the other foot, nobody would be blaming other races and indigenous people for being aggrieved about it all.

    And yes, maybe some may not have high opinion of some of the ‘modern girls’ who are a product of a decadent and decaying civilisation. Yet many see them as victims of a process of destruction, rather than scum who are ‘easy’ and ‘willing’ prey for child abusers.

    Regarding the kebab thing and Charlene Downes, which is no doubt the case being related to, it is not inconceivable that the body was disposed of in numerous ways. Some of it could well have been fed to the customers.

    It was the actual suspects in the case who were joking and laughing about it, saying that they had put her into kebabs. It is not just a rumour. It was reported by the police at the time.

    They may well have been joking and being flippant in the interview room, but it takes some sick bastards with blatant disregard for the welfare of the missing girl to be joking about that kind of thing, especially when they are under investigation for her murder.

    It is not just some “moral panic” rumour – it was part of the case. It is not the first time there has been uncertainty about what has happened to human remains linked to kebab takeaways either.

    Is a (very likely to be) politically correct police force officer to be trusted when it says “there is no evidence to support” something when there is equally less evidence to say something unequivocally did not happen?

    Is it uncommon for the police to issue glib ‘isolated incident’ and ‘nothing to see here’ re-assuring and sleep inducing announcements when shocking and disturbing things have been carried out?

    Take for example the murder of Zainab Begum in nearby Accrington. , ,

    “A MAN murdered his mother-in-law and chopped her body up into pieces at her Accrington home, a court was told. The remains of mother-of-six Zainab Begum were then transferred to a town centre takeaway but have never been discovered, a Preston Crown Court jury heard this week.”

    “Mr David Turner QC, prosecuting, told the court: “The prosecution says Arshad murdered her in her own home, dismembered her body and then, together with his brother, took the remains wrapped in bags to a takeaway restaurant which they jointly ran in Accrington.”

    “Mrs Begum’s blood was found at the Millennium takeaway on Church Street, Accrington. When the shop was examined by scientists it was suggested that body parts had been stored behind the bar on the first floor, before being taken down to the kitchen”.

    “Mr Turner told the jury: “In the kitchen the blood trail stops. What happened to the body afterwards is known only by the two defendants, who together disposed of her body to ensure that no traces of that woman would ever be found.”

    “The brothers had been working at the Millennium pizza and kebab takeaway for some time and planned to take over the business that month. Arshad worked there part-time but had a full-time job at Holland’s Pies in Baxenden.”

    “Arshad went on to tell police that he had tried to dismember her body and poured caustic soda over it. He said the body parts were transferred to the takeaway and later taken to his address in Crumpsall.

    “The defendant alleged that the remains were taken in bags and deposited in bins at the back of various Indian takeaways in the Rusholme area”.

    “But Mr Turner added: “It is the professional opinion of the experts consulted by the police that this could not be done using domestic caustic soda alone in the time suggested. There is little support for the claim that there were body parts in Crumpsall.””


    “MURDER victim Zainab Begum’s body parts were not served up as curries at an Accrington takeaway a top murder detective has revealed”.

    “Detective Chief Inspector Steve Brunskill said there was no evidence that the chopped-up body of the mum-of-six had been added to meat curries or kebabs at the Millennium takeaway in Church Street, despite her blood being found in the kitchen.”

    “Mr Brunskill, who led the murder hunt, said detectives had checked all meat at the takeaway and were satisfied none of it was human, despite “sensationalist” reports in national tabloid newspapers”……


    So there was no real evidence either way. The chopped up chunks of body parts just went into the kitchen areas and, well, vanished, in a working takeaway……….and people get suspicious of where it went and how it has never been found? How dare they?!

    If the meat had already been consumed and distributed, perhaps even mixed in at Holland’s Pies over a period of time for all we know, in addition to partially being done away with with caustic soda and distribution to various restaurant waste skips and landfills, they are hardly likely to find “evidence” of it still in the takeaway are they?

    Who knows? It is hoped that another detective was right in that the parts were merely spread across landfills.

    “Det Insp Elston said the police made extensive inquiries with waste disposal undertakings which suggested that if the version of events given by Arshad was correct the body parts could have been spread across landfill sites throughout the North West.”

    But clearly this kind of thing is possible to be happening in this country.

    It is rare, but not inconceivable any more.

    What is inconceivable though are people who are still happy to minimise and be ‘relativistic’ over certain crimes. Like when a Nigerian comes here and rakes in £1.5m in fraudulent claims it is supposed to be relative to some office worker stealing thousands from their boss, and taking that “we have our own criminals too” line.

    Well yes we do, but at least they are our own and not extra ones we have added to the population for no reason other than a sick establishment’s will.

    When Sean suggests that the raking up of 40 year old crimes by dead-white-males may be being used as part of a relativist shield for the mass abuse of indigenous girls (in a most horrific and damaging nature) by predatory interlopers to this country, I think he has a point, and I know he is not alone in becoming very suspicious about the mechanics of the prevailing nature of this country.

    Already it has been used as a tool of equivalence during the recent ‘report’ on child abuse, which was, according to some reports self admittedly written to minimise any ‘stigma’ or suggestion of Asian perpetrators being disproportionate in such crimes. Numerous radio presenters have quipped that there is ‘a lot of it about at the moment with Saville and such’, so it seems to be ‘working’ already.

    This country gets sicker and sicker. It is hard to hold out any hope for it.

    Libertarians are in my opinion dreaming if they think their ideals can prevail in such a society that has already been created, never mind what horror is to come at the hands of a new demographic on top of everything else.

    Good luck. I support much of what you aim for, I like to think that I stand by a lot of the principles I see on this site, but I also think the time of acknowledging the upcoming Britain and what it will be like 20 to 30 years from now will have to become much more realised and “factored in” for your long term future plans prospects.

  27. See, this is the problem. Human beings aren’t mentally wired to be interested in truth, as such. We communicate by an entirely different epistemology called “storytelling”. Now clearly this had evolutionary benefits; it doesn’t matter whether Ug’s story about the-stripey-animal-that-he-saw-eat-someone is entirely true, and whether he has embroidered the facts or not. If it encourages the tribe to stay away from stripey carnivores, it has done its job. This is why, as I said above, when we want objectivity we have to force ourselves into deliberately cautious prescribed epistemologies like the legal system method, or the scientific method. Effectively, in storytelling, it is predicated on *wanting to believe*, whereas the law and science are predicated on *disbelief*.

    Let’s look at the examples. In the case of the girl Charlene Downes, the defendants were acquitted. The “joking about kebabs” is unlikely to have been a confession, so the most likely interpretation is sarcasm. “Yes that’s right, I’m Lord Lucan and I’ve got Shergar in my garage”. Very common human reaction.

    But, ghoulish stories are more enjoyable than sober ones. So, ghoulish wins.

    The second case is another tragic murder, but of an old Asian mother-in-law, so hardly fits the narrative either. Murders happen. All are terrible, some are truly gruesome. But agan, there is no actual evidence that she ended up in kebabs. Rather, they dispersed the body parts to businesses where they could be taken out with the rest of the high volume of rubbish.

    Which as I pointed out before, is a shedload easier than butchering the corpse, mincing the flesh, feeding that to customers, and still being left with the head, skeleton and offal to dispose of anyway.

    None of this supports the general narrative being peddled, a narrative which harks back to the first White Slavery Panic- swarthy foreigners kidnapping virgins. That was made up too. That is not to say that there was never an instance of a swarthy foreigner kidnapping or raping a white girl. But conspiracy theories don’t posit particular instances; they produce a theory of *system*. You couid compare another well known conspiracy theory; feminism. Nobody denies that some men do awful things to women; rape, murder, violence. What distinguishes feminist conspiracy theory is that it declares that these things are systematic, rather than simply instances.

    And so, fast food. There is a long history of stories like this, from people biting into KFC and finding it’s a rat, or a human finger or hand, curried cat, dog, rat etc, back to Sweeney Todd. Because with processed meat you have to trust the vendor, any vendor you are predisposed to distrust for emotional reasons (big evil corporations, foreigners, etc) becomes a very likely target for such rumours.

    Occasional things happen that are truly shocking and beyond our normal expectations of human behaviour. The Fritzl case for instance. One cannot say that nobody has ever put a human corpse in a kebab (though as David pointed out, kebab isn’t minced and as we both pointed out, humans taste of pork not lamb). But before accepting that it has happened, one must ask for very good evidence.

    I did make one partial error with my example above of whether I was in the Holy Sepulchre churchyard last tuesday. The “extremity” of the claim is not the only criterion. As Ecks pointed out, if there is a widespread belief in Satanic rituals (as occurred in the Satanic Panic) then the claim that I saw one is not remarkable. The issue is how important the truth is. If I say I was there having a ciggie on tuesday, that’s not important. If it’s my alibi for a crime, it becomes important and I must prove I was there, if other evidence has put me at the scene of the murder. If I claim I saw somebody *else* there, ritually cannibalising a murder victim, that’s an important claim, and you should demand solid evidence. Rumour just isn’t good enough.

    There is a long human history of groups and tribes who don’t like each other accusing each other of depravity and wickedness. It is not to say that that means that nobody is depraved or wicked. But it does urge us to exercise caution; the first element of which is to ask oneself “Am I looking for truth here, or just storytelling?”. My mate knew somebody who had a mate who heard somebody bit into a KFC, and it was a rat! Honest to God, it’s the truth.

  28. @IanB “the “Muslim Grooming” panic- another case of a few dirty old men finding some easy and willing girls, nothing more- is just part of the same moral panic.”

    Yet, Ian, the recent report by Mz Berlowitz, the deputy children’s commissioner outlined 2,500 children over the course of one year (in various forms of grooming, not just Pakistani). The report also said this was an underestimate. It only covered 2010-2011 but we know that a Home Office report flagged it in 2002 as a growing issue and so we have at least a decade of this particular activity taking place.

    Something in your pramface comments though, to be sure.

  29. @IanB “” They even had to report police claims that one murdered white girl had been disposed of in a mincing machine and sold as doner kebabs.”
    This is the typical kind of lurid tale that circulates during moral panics. ”

    This comes from three sources:
    “Albattikhi laughed and said she was very small – the plainest possible indication that he was lying to the police when he said he did not know her. He and others present then laughingly said that Charlene had gone into the kebabs.”

    “In 2004, Albattikhi had a dispute with his brother, Tariq, who told a witness, David Cassidy, that he knew what had happened to Charlene – “she had been killed and chopped up and there had been a lot of blood”, the court heard.”

    The case collapsed due to police incompetence but the shop owners were also reportedly recorded talking about the disposal of the body. The police thereafter placed harassment notices with the mother when she continued to try to find justice for her daughter after the collapse of the trial.

    And this one establishment was also believed (police report) to have groomed 60 girls of a similar age.

  30. The point is that the girls are not “willing” – they are tricked, and then force and fear are used.

    There are many men (of all races and creeds) who do these vile things – and they must be punished for their crimes.

  31. I’d say there’s several points, but of course traditionally we did not consider children at the very least under 14 years old to be fully responsible for their actions. Part of the outrage over this case has been due to the reporting that the local authorities declared many of the girls to be sexually willing participants and therefore there was nothing that could (or should) be done.

  32. Police incompetence is often a factor in cases but none of those up in arms about cannibalism have yet been able to present a solid shread of proof that even one such event has occured. IanB has asked for proof but just gets back more unsupported accusations.

    Make no mistake–I am no friend to the Religion of Piece but I think that, in matters of accusation against anyone, proof is the only thing–how much you dislike the accused should not count at all, for the sake of all of us.

    The sex side of it—it is not clear to me what has gone on. Have the girls in question been raped?. In which case a real crime has occured and must be punished. Have they been merely enticed or persuaded into sex?–This is a technical crime but is not the same as rape or molestation and must not be conflated with genuine forced sexual contact.

  33. Pingback: Articles for Another Friday » Scott Lazarowitz's Blog

  34. This thread seems not to have quite run off the bobbin yet, but it does now seem to have become stuck on the sole topic in regard to what is thought to have been human flesh being used, allegedly, in place of more regular Kebab meat. Whether that is so or not, I’ve not the faintest idea, nor have the police. There’s no proof that a dismembered girl’s body muscles have been used in place of the more regular meat being served; neither is there evidence to suggest that it wasn’t. However, the police seemed to have ruined a first-rate chance of getting the proof needed when bungling occurred during a swab taking session. Given that it is well known that the police will go out of their way to not upset potentially dangerous Muslim extremists however, they might well have botched the job deliberately. What might be more surprising to many people though, is that several people writing here seem to ‘know’ what human flesh tastes like (really?) so it’s not entirely beyond the realms of possibility that it did happen. So to be accusing those who give a level of credence to the ‘kebab’ story of ‘believing any old claptrap’, or being ‘intrinsically gullible’, can very easily be turned around the other way by accusing those who refuse to give credence, to be themselves indulging in ‘all manner of new claptrap’ or being ‘intrinsically blind’. We do know of course, from police reports, that their new friends consider it funny and joke about the flesh of young girls being chopped up and added to a ‘doner’ kebab. Not even close to being funny from where I stand in regard to this grizzly business.

    What doesn’t need the slightest burden of proof however – because it’s all logged criminal history – is that many of the abused girls involved were/are first lured by small, cheap gifts – sweets, crisps, pop etc. With cheap booze to follow, prior to drugs being introduced in various forms. The beasts that acquired them knowing what the likely effects of using them were, whilst the girls would most likely not have a clue. Now, in my book, that’s classed as taking advantage in a most evil way.

    Once drugged, the victim’s were taken away to safe houses (safe for the criminals) and there sexually abused, sometimes raped – often repeatedly. It was reported, that the men responsible for the Rochdale case were tried, found guilty and convicted and are now serving time. That’s a matter of fact and no amount of love for a quick kebab, or any amount of obfuscation can wipe that crime from the record book. In addition, the presiding Judge would obviously not be in agreement that it was all over-reaction on the girl’s part. With average beta male using charm in order to snare young girls into willingly having sex with him… full stop. No gifts, no booze, no drugs, no threats. Yes and pigs fly too.

    This type of crime would have been stopped for all time had the judge been able to request the attendance of a Pakistani cop, well practice in the art caning, to attend prison and deliver those animals a sound beating on their backs and feet. Split cane and fifty lashes each would have provided sufficient cheap flesh for many a greasy kebab. Although anyone eating it would surel die from poisoning if they did.

    Let’s just reflect upon what we know has already happened and is almost certainly still going on:

    Muslim men, some educated here, fed and protected by overly-generous tax-payers, form themselves into a gang of sexually perverted predators who marauded through English streets in search of young, white females (their own virgin females kept firmly under lock and key – of course). We do know, without a doubt now, what happens to many young females once in thrall to that type of sick individual. Why English blood isn’t boiling confuses me. Where are all the female’ voices now? Any man who defends or willingly accepts the actions of these beasts being little more than the normal activities of modern young males, no matter which country they come from, ought to reflect carefully. Reflect upon what might have gone through the mind of, let’s say his own daughter, after being kidnapped, held captive for very long periods whilst being repeatedly and no doubt often violently abused. Sexually aroused beasts on the loose but now mercifully caught, tried, condemned and sentenced. This is fact, it’s not been dreamed up by those who dislike immigrants. I doubt the BNP are adding comments here.

    It matters not a toss how old these females were at the time, or how high they wore their skirts. 1 – 18 years old, they are all our daughters, our girls… English girls. If some wish to consider them ‘slappers‘ that still doesn’t make a ticks’ worth of difference. If they don’t deserve protection given the best we can, then what chance of a worthwhile future for the English race? We really do not own a single excuse. We badly let them down… period. They needed doors to be smashed from their hinges but we, along with the appropriate authorities, were too busy allowing ourselves to be cajoled and manipulated by a rich and powerful PC elite.

  35. I don’t know what relation the above rant has to reality. You employ a large number of emotive words which tend to cloud the truth. If these people are guilty of what you say they are then they need heavy punishment. But guilt or innocence can not be established accurately where emotion clouds the issue.
    If these girls were raped–in the true meaning of the word, ie violently or under terrifying threats of violence forced to have sex/sexual contact– then it seems unlikely that that at age 14 or so they would be lured by “sweets”–age four possibly but not 14. Underclass girls of that age prob already know a lot more about booze and drugs than I do.
    The best thing would be to read the court transcripts and that way get an accurate idea of what the perps were actually accused of. Were they accused of real rape or was it so called “grooming” which implies that overt violence was not used–does anyone know if such transcripts are on-line anywhere?.I no longer trust newspaper accounts of anything.

  36. I’m obliged to agree with you there Mr Ecks and confess that I’ve not actually read the trial transcripts. I do not however agree one bit that guilt or innocence cannot be established where emotion runs high. If that were the case than half the cases concerning death or maiming would never conclude with a verdict. A Judge might well try to remove emotion from his own, or the minds of the jury during summing up, but that’s all that it is… a try.

    I base a good deal of what I set out on the words of several people I know who live/lived in the Rochdale area. I’ve attempted to relate to readers (in dramatic form) what was said to me. I trust what I’ve been told by them, although I haven’t yet lost all faith in British newspapers – which you sadly seem to have.

    You may well not become even the slightest bit emotional when reading about the terrible crimes taking place in our country and well done you.. but some of us do. With regards to sweets etc offering up no lure for a 14 year olds I can only assume you are childless or dislike sweeties. I’m far older than I want to be; especially given that I’m still actively engaged in several sports, but offer me a Twix bar Mr Ecks, or a Kit-Kat even (2 fingers only… because I’m a teensy bit overweight) and I’m a pal for life.

    Apart from admitting that I’ve not sought to acquire a transcript (and therefore relied on bit and pieces read in various newspapers) I also retract the severity of the beating recommended for the guilty men. Having witnessed a caning, I think 50 strokes to both back and legs is too severe; the beasts might well die and I don’t believe in capital punishment… upon emotionless reflection, 20 to each would do the job nicely. The word would still go around whose police force it was that would be doing the chastising.

    Best wishes. I mostly enjoy reading your comments.