The problem about Liverpool


David Davis

I write as the Libertarian Alliance’s Director of Northern Affairs.

Old Holborn’s blog, facebook and “twitter” (whatever that might be) accounts appear to have “been disappeared”, by preson or persons unknown, connected with a police investigation of allegations of what I guess we are to be voluntold to believe is “alleged hate-speech”. This alleged hate-speech appears to be to do with aspects of the modern historiography of a city in the North West of England, called Liverpool.

Liverpool has greatly suffered since WW2 as a result of being a test-bed for the more virulent, deep-rooted and vindictive forms of GramscoFabiaNazism. Mosern readers of this blog from overseas might not know that, in 1940/41 and sporadically afterwards, Liverpool suffered more air raids than any other city in the UK except London. This misfortune was due to two factors:-

(1) It is on an easily-identifiable coastline pattern (even in fog and cloud), on a well-followable compass bearing from not far away such as North West European airbases, and the aircraft guidance systems of 1940 were very well up to that simple task, against the nugatory defences we could organise at that time,

(2) It was the second or third most important commercial port of the British Empire. Only London, Glasgow and Halifax (Nova Scotia) would have competed. Halfax couldn’t be reached from Holland, Belgium or even western France: Glasgow was rather further and a bit iffy to find, even for crack Luftwaffe Geschwader (and these fellas were good at what they did) on a dark foggy night. And London was already being effectively pasted, even more easily with the weapons and guidance systems of the time, so why not Liverpool also, as it was quite reachable?

A higher percentage of the Liverpool urban area’s population was “dehoused” than any other British city.Very, very, very large areas of what is now “Bootle” and Seaforth were, quite simply, levelled. You can drive for what seems like many minutes, even outside the rush-hour, through a sort of utopian post-war-socialist-housing-landscape, and there is absolutely no change of scenery at all. You have to understand this simple fact, perfeably by trying it.

You must also couple this enormous level of mass-civilian demoralisation which must have been caused, with – tell it not in Gath – aspects of the ethno-religious makeup of Liverpool over the centuries. It is indeed a rather old city, founded officially by King John in 1208 but probably existing as a portal to Ireland for some centuries before that. Incidentally, John – although reviled generally as a king, sometimes unjustly – was regarded well by the Irish tribes. He was seen as a better (translate that as a lot less bad or overbearing) “Feudal Lord” of the Irish than any English kings who preceeded – only his father Henry II did that – or succeeded him. In effect he left them to themselves much more, so they could slaughter each other in peace without having to pay him overmuch.

“Real” Liverpudlians are not really, have not typically been, and cannot easily try to be, dour Puritan protestant workstrivers on the post-Renaissance-ethical model. Please understand me whan I say this does not make them “bad people”: merely it inclines them towards a rather larger measure of self-pity and the seeking of “someone to blame” for their relative bad fortune if this should be evident, than would be the case, say, among Germans in 1943-45, or Dutch people in Rotterdam, or even people from East London in 1940.

Having also in the 1940s a large percentage of manufacturing, docking and manual-labouring-industries, Liverpool was a ripe test-bed for GramscoFabiaNazis planning strategically for the end of the war which they as Nazis (this is to say: leftists just like Hitler’s and Stalin’s mobs) intended they would win, and which they did. The GramscoFabiaNazis had a ready-made fractious, aggrieved population to work with, and work they did, to farm it for votes, seats and patronage. The standard British-Trade-Union-Model in fact.

You must also remember that because in 1945 we had no money, then because of that, everything, absolutely everything, everywhere, was rubbish. Specially, almost all new buildings were rubbish. Rubbish buildings cause depression in hominids: just imagine trying to erect a rotting buffalo-skin-windshelter in semi-arctic scrubland 20,000 years ago and finding that it’s rubbish at keeping out the wind and it blows howling away, and then you die of hypothermia. But socialists use this fact on purpose, to cow populations to their will. Most post-war building in or near Liverpool is rubbish. Rubbish buildings promote the forming of people who think they are rubbish, and then try to find someone to blame for their rubbishness.

But the Nazis cleverly, in Liverpool, persuaded the depressed people to blame “the rich bastards down South” – who by work and resignation to reality and by their own efforts (I lived there: I watched them) slowly climbed out of Britain’s post-war-ruin and defeat. Now, modern Liverpudlians must of nesessity be a much more cosmopolitan bunch: immigration, particularly from Greek, (+ more Irish), Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, other EU ethnicities and the like, not to mention the “Indian Subcontinent” and the Chinese (a very large group in themselves) must have altered the ethno-religious makeup I referred to earlier. So why does this self-imposed mawkishness, this facet of a fading primitive tribal atavism, still prevail, and make Liverpudlians so sensitive to supposed “offence” at something said about their city or their people?

I blame socialism. I blame in especial the Nazi apparatchiks who, by the 1980s, had turned Liverpool into a sort of mini-USSR. They did it not for “helping the people”: the “people” is a thing that is dispensable – and indeed can be dissolved and a new “people” elected in its stead. They did it for power, patronage and prestige for themselves. And for Jaguar XJSs, and you know the man to whom I refer here.

When Liverpudlians howl that they “demand justice”, or that the rest of the world thinks they are mawkish grief-wallowers, or that “they haven’t been given nearly enough money to solve their problems”, then they’ve been made like that, rather in the way that Morgoth made orcs, in mockery of (real) elves. They are the victims of a massive, awful deception, perpetrated on them as an experiment, by people that have not their interests at heart.

Yes of course, it’s highly probable that the chief Gestapo-Officer in charge of policing at Hillsborough contributed to an awful tragedy and either caused it or at the very least made it worse: but the world contains a sad log of so many even bigger human disasters, so much more recent, and by comparison so forgotten. I’m not saying that we should tell all the Hil;sborough-mourners to “go home and get a life”, although I’d like to feel that I could, without having my computer “seized by police” the next morning.

If only Liverpool could succeed in utterly shaking off socialism, all its problems would cease inside five years. Read my lips.

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49 responses to “The problem about Liverpool

  1. “GramscoFabiaNazis”

    This silly name calling (like the tiresome term “EUSSR”) detracts from what is otherwise a very interesting and mature analysis.

  2. Given that the Tories got a majority of votes in Liverpool in 1951 (according to the Economist this week) it would be interesting to know what caused the decline.

  3. Richard, GramscoFabiaNazis is what they are. When pressed, on their objectives and their preferred strategy, they can’t wriggle out of it. They never can, so that’s what they are and that’s what they will be, until they can be made to have been “gone”. I fear that this glad day however will be somewhat in the future.

    (And if you don’t prefer it for describing them, then you can “unuse” it.

  4. Firstly, I would not agree, with the analysis on Liverpool, historically
    Liverpool has been very important to Britain, in respect of trade, insurance,
    and banking, many outside investors made literally millions from Liverpool,
    when a million was a very great deal of money, in the 1600’s they took the
    first cargo from america, following this the merchant ships brough great
    wealth to england in the form of tade goods, which were essential to our
    economic development, and that of the industiral revolution, they boasted
    the first enclosed wet dock that could hold 100 ships, during the second
    war German Spies were holed up at liverpool as it bacame the main naval
    command centre for the battle of the Atlantic, might explain why it got
    bombed so much, Adolf Hitlers brother lived in Liverpool for a time before
    moving on. I think Liverpool has made great contribution to Britain, I
    can’t help feeling they been betrayed by Tory governments. Liverpool
    all suffered great injustice regarding hilsborough, they yet again fell
    victim to criminal neglet by government, in the form of corrupted
    policing denying them to right of justice. At the moment liverpool is
    much like many parts of the south, point in decline in depression, I
    do not think this is caused by socialism but a far greater problem, the
    people of Liverpool would do justice to themselves in dealing with the
    issues of corrupted policing, this is what really destroy’s communities and
    robs us of our freedom and creates the chaos that clouds our lives.

  5. I think EUSSR describes it pretty well.

  6. Can’t be that bad now surely.

  7. Karl, Karl, Karl….keep your hair on old fella!
    (1) When did I ever say that Liverpool was, or is, not important to the UK? Try to find where I said that it isn’t or wasn’t important: just try.

    (2) The Battle of the Atlantic didn’t really get going until Liverpool had been mostly levelled by bombing first. The two campaigns are not strategically connected at all. Liverpool was razed by the Luftwaffe (in a correct tactical move, I would have to say, with my War Secretary’s Hat on) because it was the primary port of debarcation of supplies from Canada, the British West Indies, Latin America and Argentina, all allies of the British in WW2. If I was Goering, hen I would have continued to raze Liverpool to the ground until it was rubble. Wars are sort of like that.

    (3) As I tried to explain….the trouble about Liverpool is the mindset of quite a large percentage of people that lived there during and after the War. They were the sort of people that, romantically, cold get inveigled into believing in GramscoFabiaNazism being their friend and not their enemy and “wicked-farmer-for-power”.

    Nobody _told_ Liverpudleians to elect GramscoFabiaNazi “labour” MPs, when there were others to choose from that were Tory or “liberal”. They simply did it: just like the German People simply failed to not-elect Hitler and the NSDAP in 1933. It was a case of “choosing poorly”. Nobody told them to elect StaliNazi majorities on their local councils: they merely, sort of, just did. They made poor choices, again there.

    Now, let’s mention the unmentionable: Hillsborough…
    If it had been the crushed and macerated fans of a London side, say, I don’t know – Tottenham Hotspur, or Chelsea: do you think that millions of us Londoners would be going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on, er, and on and on and on and on…about it 24 years afterwards?

    Yes, it was sad, avaoidable and regrettable. And the Police were scumbags, because anyway as a libertarian you must by now know that scumbags is what police are – it’s their job. They’re supposed to rub up against criminals and villains, so how can they not get like the bastards themselves? Mud sticks, sadly.

    Could it be that, perhaps, they really really really really madly deeply badly _wanted to get in to see the game_ ? And they wanted it so really really madly deeply that the angrier later ones at the back might have pushed too hard into the ones at the front?

    Remember that many millions of adults, especially in the “North West”, here, are just “very very very big children”. They never pass up any excuse for a party or a “really nice big get-together”. It’s socialism again that’s done that for you……and trust me, please, regarding that opinion, for I have chosen to live here.
    “The Police should have sorted it out!!!!” Why-ever is it the task of the Police, be they ever so Nazi, to show people how to form orderly queues?

  8. Yes well you may be right about Liverpool, I’m not an expert I only stated what I knew on the basis of reading material. But yes you’re right about the police, the FIO came as a shock today, the lid has been blown open on the police compo culture, what about this, £8,000 for flea bites, £7,000 for another falling off a chair, £600.00 for another who sued for an alleged loud noise. West Midlands police took £900,000 which was shared between 67 employees, it’s disgusting, nothing but disgusting.

  9. Socialism also brought the council house estates and the need to break up existing communities to populate the new estates. The history of the building of these estates is one of corruption involving builders, politicians, architects, trade unionist and fellow travellers. Liverpool was, in the post war era, also exporting its population to the new towns of the north west and to Autralian/New Zealand.
    In the space of two generations Liverpool went from a dynamic city chasing the capitalist’s dream of family and self improvement to a broken and bankrupt socialist housing estate.

  10. Well that might be the case, but conservatisism does not work either, people
    where I live can’t get a house at all, all political parties in the UK are in fact
    defunct, If they sleep on the street they get nicked by the woodentops, it’s
    seems no one has the answers then. Even cave men had shelter.

  11. Scouser tommy

    Your obsession with scousers is brilliant.

    The city that don’t take shit gets abused by people who hate the system yet hates the city that fought the system.

    The complaint of the racist scouse, black and Jew hating old holborn was made from someone from southport not liverpool yet you rant on and on and on about scousers.

    You screeeeeeeeam of freedom of speech yet you can only talk shit. No wonder you all crave annonimity.

    Old holborn is 50+ and uses his spare time to abuse the dead……

    Scousers really don’t care what others think of us, we really don’t.

    We’ve not hidden behind blogs and silly psudanims for 24 years. We took our fight to the street and won.

    If you’re so desperate to argue with scousers them go to liverpool. ….oh wait. Then you’d have to do it face to face. And that’s not how it works is it.

    Haters gonna hate.

  12. Tommy please explain how Liverpool fought the system, took the fit to the streets and won?

  13. Yes, tell, us, tell, us.

  14. I think that should just about cover it, back under your stone.

  15. The Prime Minister said victims’ relatives would never get over the 1989 disaster and likened them to a “blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there” – Cameron 24/10/11

  16. HADAMADONETHERE

    Pseudo-intellectual bile.

    “Real” Liverpudlians are not really, have not typically been, and cannot easily try to be, dour Puritan protestant workstrivers on the post-Renaissance-ethical model.’

    What does that even mean?

  17. When you use the term ‘GramscoFabiaNazi’ it’s something of a giveaway that your ‘analysis’ is more to do with shifting the consensus by making bollocks up than letting your arguments speak for themselves.

    In the real world, the following two statements are basically true.

    —The ‘Nazis’ were an extremely right wing political party who killed millions of people. They were fascists. They liked uniforms and wanted Germany to be the centre of an empire comparable to Rome.

    —The ‘Labour Party’ are a left wing British party whose economic policy you disagree with.

    When you compare the two, you are being a prick.

  18. Stephen Black

    What a crock of pseudo-intellectual tripe. I honestly cannot think of the last time I read more self-indulgent, biased, agenda-ridden bullshit.
    Does the writer actually think that, in Liverpool, we sit around talking about our grievances all the time? I apologise in advance as I know that this doesn’t fit into your view of my city…but that’s not how it plays out I’m afraid…We get up and go to work, come home, eat dinner and look forward to a nice glass of wine and a meal in one of the many fine restaurants that the city has to offer each weekend. Same as any other city. I’d advise you to pay a visit but, again, it might knock your one-track, skewed view…so probably best that you just sit there behind your little keyboard.
    Don’t get me wrong: Liverpool has it’s problems…Same as any other city. But we’re no longer in the UK top 10 for burglary, theft or violent crime (look up the 2012 National crime statistics)..Again, apologies that it doesn’t fit into your view of a crime ridden city – Maybe your 70s/80s view is out of date?…Nope-Didnt think so.

    As for your comments on our ‘self-pity’, it’s nothing of the sort. What we do is stand by our own when an injustice has been committed. I pray that none of your children are ever killed and then, in an attempt to cover up their death, the killer tests your child’s lifeless body for drugs and alcohol…And then blames them anyway-With the rest of the country only to happy to go along and agree that it must have been their own fault because the ‘honourable’ justice-wielding police are saying it. What about getting blamed for robbing the pockets and urinating on our own dead family members-Would you accept that would you? How long for? One year? Ten years? Twent four years? Or would you want the people who made this happen brought to justice? Reading through your bullshit, you do actually sound like the type of person who might just say ‘Fair enough’ and accept it. Not us though, mate. We don’t sit behind keyboards and write about cities that have nothing to do with us…We stand side by side to fight against injustice instead of taking time to write about a city we’ve probably never been to/have the wrong view of. I honestly don’t know where people like you get the time for these bullshit blogs about a city that’s not their own. Some of us are out working for a living.

    Take care now.

  19. Anyway do you think the police cooked the crime figures under the target
    policy, they have been doing that a lot, and forging records to met the
    targets to kiss government arse. there might no have been that much
    crime after all.

  20. Top response, bang on the money.

  21. For the avoidance of doubt I was referring to Stephen’s post.

  22. There’s been a lot of investigations into police in the south eastern regions
    they were cooking the books in relation to crime, figures fabricated in relation to alleged burglaries to justfy their existance, and pulling people in on alleged allegations and bringing trumped up
    charges to met government targets, they coud have done that in Liverpool
    without the public knowing.

  23. Stephen Black

    So, let me get this straight: You were all prepared to believe the police account of things when it fit in with your view of us…But when the police view paints a different story, you all come out of the woodwork to ‘advise’ that the figures that paint us in a positive light have been invented…Haha brilliant-You couldn’t make it up!

  24. That’s the police, sice these new anti-corruption units have been set up to
    replace that corrupted IPCC they have started to committ suicide, we have
    had 2 this week, perhaps they ew to much and were going to tell teacher!

  25. Of course I’m glad I took ph.j, I get a lot of information through the skills I learned, did you know we are living in a state controled blackmail culture, take today’s FOI leak police commissioner running around in a chauffeur driven lemo, all the people who leaked it have now been arrested, hampshire police lying to papers,to censor leaks about local council, Cotswold Tory Council spends £15.000 on Mr Magic entertainer to motivate overpaid staff, it’s all good old stuff. They didn’t like being at work as they had earned so much, they wanted to be at home doing other things.

  26. Neil;
    The Labour party hasn’t been left wing since the 1970’s. Have a look at the leadership and the class/background they came from. Do you really believe Blair/Millibands/Mandelson and their ilk are representative of, and represent the traditional working class of this country! And how could they. The traditional working class is in terminal decline.Mass employment in heavy industry has gone,along with the population which traditionally drew their living from it;a living which for the most part, meant financial independence from the state. Very difficult to control a people which is aware of its contribution to the nation’s wealth and is willing to exercise its collective muscle to claim rewards.Well that’s all gone and Labour had to find a new base to draw from and a new vision to sell.
    Nu labour! roll up roll up- ‘social justice’ whatever that means. And while we’re at it lets make it global. we only have a few jobs left but, what the heck. Come on over and join the fight for the scraps. We’ll look in from time to time to see how you are doing. But don’t expect too much-I mean we’ve got globe trotting to do, parties to attend and ‘victims’ to push. You traditional working class- you have nothing to offer the Labour Party now.-you’re just a bunch of bigots anyway
    Labour Party don’t make me F-laugh

    Bye the way. The Nazi party was socialist. Don’t be fooled by their hatred of Communism. Hitler just didn’t like the idea of extending the supposed benefits of socialism globally.Only the Germans were worthy.
    You seem to associate an attachment to uniforms with right wing-oh dear
    Not much going for that argument when you look at China’s experiment with socialism’s ‘we can’t lift everyone up so lets bash everyone down to the same level’tripe. And just so we know we’re all equal we’ll all dress the same.

  27. Hello Partricia, very true, very true, I won’t make further comment, because
    we know it’s bang on.

  28. sandra riley

    Picture this scenario if you will please. You have a ten year old son and he went out to play with his friends and a drunk driver mounted the pavement and knocked him over, the driver gets out of his car in front of hundreds of witnesses, staggers over to your son clutching a bottle of vodka. The police arrive and form a cordon around your son and tell the driver to get back in his car and go home because he’s done nothing wrong. They continue to hold back any bystanders trying to reach your son and help him. After an hour or so they ring an ambulance but by then its too late. Your child is dead. They then break the news to you that your child died as a result of an accident but it was his own fault because he had been drinking and threw himself in front of the car. Get the picture? Now tell me you would accept that and bury your child and forget all about the injustice? Didn’t think so!

  29. Harry Price Politicians

    I met pole the other day, he’s lived under all systems, Russian, German,
    English, it summed it up they are all the same, they just take your money,
    whatever they claim to be, we end up being prisoners even under the tories.

  30. Scouser tommy

    There is no problem with Liverpool as you first stated.

    The problems with people like you who dislike us. Maybe it’s envy.

    Re 24 years on the street it was in relation to the fight for truth and justice. Taking on the governments and police. Not behind a pc but in their faces.

    …………..

    A few days on from the Hillsborough report, one powerful image abides. It is of three stoic women, speaking with power and clarity about the struggles they’ve endured these past 23 years. Two of them, Margaret Aspinall and Anne Williams, lost their sons, respectively James, 18, and Kevin, 15, at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final.

    The third woman, Sheila Coleman, spokeswoman for the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, has faced a different kind of struggle. Her task has been to keep the appalling injustices of the disaster in the public eye, so that fellow mothers such as Margaret and Anne could, finally, get the world to accept what they had been saying with patient insistence. That their sons went to that football match in peace; that they did not contribute to their own deaths; that their lives could have been saved, and that the real architects of the Hillsborough tragedy are still at large, still unaccountable.

    This was a tragedy with deep roots. For those who lean to the left, it’s too easy to utter the word “Thatcher” and to link her government with everything wretched that happened in the 1980s. But it’s enough, for now, to note that the style of government she fostered brought a confrontational atmosphere to everyday life. In the form of Thatcher herself, and her ally Norman Tebbit, there was little trace of any form of patrician Tory benevolence. Their credo seemed more akin to a rigid take on national identity whereby every True Brit toed the line and worked hard, uncomplainingly, for whatever they were given. Anyone who bucked against the Tories’ values was deemed a “wrecker.” The play-out to the Tom Robinson Band’s 1979 song Power In The Darkness lists a catalogue of “wreckers” including “… football hooligans, juvenile delinquents, lesbians and left-wing scum.”

    Among those toeing the line, of course, were the police. There are reasons for their apparent sense of immunity. Early on, the Conservatives implemented a 45% pay rise for the force. Unsurprisingly, this fostered a spirit of kinship and loyalty among the nation’s constabularies. Simultaneously, the government started into its programme of wage cuts and closures in the nationalised industries. Which inevitably set police on a collision course with pickets as industrial action escalated in the early 1980s.

    Also, there seemed little sympathy in their ranks for those living in the nation’s poorest communities. Complaints were rife that newly ordained snatch squads were abusing their powers of stop-and-search (the hugely unpopular “Suss” process) to humiliate peaceable citizens. Resentment smouldered in multi-ethnic quarters such as Brixton and St Paul’s, Bristol, where the overriding feeling was that law and order did not apply to the forces tasked with imposing it.

    With unemployment rocketing from 1.5 million in May 1979 to nearly 3 million by the end of 1980, these communities further felt a complete disenfranchisement from any likelihood of work. So the Brixton riots of April 1981 came as no surprise; neither did the disturbances that flared up in Toxteth, Liverpool, a few months later.

    A year or two after Power In The Darkness, Tom Robinson might have added “scousers” to that ironic list of demons. The 1980s oversaw a radical transformation in Liverpool’s national standing and its citizens’ popular perception. Gone were the lovable Merseybeat bands of the 1960s, and the daffy but adorable Liver Birds. In their place came a family of incorrigible scroungers, in Bread, followed by a litany of skivers, whingers and whiners in Brookside and Boys from the Blackstuff.

    Just as the mop top came to symbolise a certain Liverpudlian elan, so the hackneyed bubble perm, worn with a sloppy tracksuit and a defiant moustache, stereotyped the workshy scouser of Thatcher’s Britain. Whereas the previous generation’s assumption was that Liverpudlians were gregarious, generous, witty and creative, the 1980s version were viewed as chippy, aggressive and innately inclined towards criminality.

    And then there was Militant. Even among lifelong Labour voters, opinions are polarised to this day over Liverpool’s Militant-dominated city council of the early 1980s. Most believe their regime was in part responsible for Liverpool’s acute downturn. But we now know that, in the wake of the Toxteth riots, Chancellor Geoffrey Howe urged Thatcher to abandon Liverpool to a programme of “managed decline.” In those circumstances, it was going to take a different brand of local government simply to arrest that decline, let alone reverse it. Yet the sharp suits and fondness for the limelight of the council’s de facto leader Derek Hatton only added fuel to the anti-Liverpudlian pyre.

    By that time Mrs Thatcher had been re-elected, and the growing sense that the police did her bidding was palpable. Having gained experience and, perhaps, harbouring grudges from the riots of 1981, the mounted police took no nonsense from the pickets at Orgreave at the culmination of the miners’ strike of 1984. Their actions were so violent that the Police And Criminal Evidence Act was re-drafted to include a code of conduct for police, as well as suspects.

    In football, in the English first division, crowds were on the decline and hooliganism was on the rise. With outside broadcast units joining the rest of nation on strike in the 1980s, it went almost unnoticed that Liverpool and Everton won the league championship almost every year.

    But the 1984-85 season was marred by violence at football grounds, culminating in tragedy when 39 Juventus supporters died at the European Cup final in Brussels after they were charged by Liverpool fans. Mrs Thatcher demanded solutions to the British Disease, and nothing – ID cards, electric fences – was considered too draconian. In the event, the culture of football violence ended organically the following season when ecstasy-fuelled Acid House ushered in a new era of communality.

    It was against this social backdrop, then, that the events of 15 April 1989 unfolded at Hillsborough. Four of us set off by car from Liverpool that morning. There was a prolonged tailback across the Snake Pass, meaning we didn’t get into Sheffield until after one. It’s absurd to suggest that nobody approaching the ground had had a drink, but I’d seriously doubt that anybody had time to get seriously drunk. It’s equally pat to say that everyone had tickets – but the touts soon put paid to that. They were virtually giving tickets away on the walk-up to Hillsborough.

    As the Leppings Lane end of the ground came into sight, and the singing amplified, so the crowd flow simply stopped. We waited. There was no information. Understandably, the police were jumpy. These were football hooligans they were facing down. Liverpool fans. Scousers. Militants. The worst sort of wreckers. Everybody knows, now, what happened next.

    The prime minister’s apology carried symbolic value as it represented an owning-up to corruption that went to the heart of the Establishment. That, for me, was a historic admission. As for the later apologies – from Sun editors past and present Dominic Mohan and Kelvin MacKenzie, the FA – they’re worthless. They only came as a result of the culprits finally realising they had no choice but to apologise.

    On that day in 89, I was among the fortunate ones who went left, where others went straight ahead. For 23 years, those of us who were at that game to support Liverpool have had to endure, at best, the suggestion that somehow we were responsible for the deaths of our fellow fans. Or to listen to the wretched line of “just get over it”. For Margaret Aspinall and Anne Williams, it has been far, far worse. I’m in awe of them, and Sheila Coleman – the women who just wouldn’t let it lie.

  31. Tommy I hope your experiences have taught you that the state and it agencies are not your friend.

  32. Tommy where do you get the false impression we don’t like you. Police
    are the problem surely we can all see that, that’s why we need to deal with
    them. As long as things remain as they are there will never be justice or
    democracy for anyone, yet alone people from |Liverpool.

  33. I don’t think that any of the people who have been execrating me have actually read my article properly.

    I was at pains to say how important Liverpool was, to global trade and to the British Empire. Perhaps you all missed this part by typing in other, more emotional, keywords, in searches. I was also at some pains to state how Liverpool, through allowing itself and its people to be bamboozled by leftist GramscoFabiaNazis after WW2, got turned into a gigantic experiment to try the recreation of North-Korea-by-Mersey.

    Also, to whoever it was that said that the Nazis (the German ones from 1919-1945) were an extreme right wing party, you are plain mistaken. Simple as that. They were fascists, yes. That’s right. Fascists elevate the State and favoured groupings above individuals: that’s called fascism. All Marxists are fascists (let’s see who this one picks up). It’s what socialists do.

    The NSDAP incidentally was called:- “The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei)”

    “Socialist” means “to be on the left”. Is that correct or not?
    Or am I and are you all mistaken?

  34. Stephen Black

    Not all of us commented on that particular piece of bullshit..Personally because I viewed it as exactly that and not worthy of response.

    With regards to your other comment around ‘throwing us a bone’ by saying how important Liverpool is..blah blah blah – What are you saying: Because you opened up an inaccurate piece about a city you know nothing about with a half-compliment, we should all be agreeing with the rest of the bullshit in the article? Entire streets are levelled and barren are they?!! Hahaha where on earth do you people get your information from. I’m laughing out loud wondering whether anybody will actually be thick enough to believe any of it!

    I’ll repeat what I said earlier as it perfectly describes what you’ve written: A pseudo-intellectual piece of tripe.

    Now get back behind your anonymous Internet presence and write a piece about another city that you have no idea about. Perhaps the people there will want to listen to the absolute drivel you talk.

    Good day, sir.

  35. Nobody has ever mistaken me for an anonymous presence before. That’s quite a new one.

    Also, John Prescott was the only modern person apart from the Nazis who has been trying to level your streets. Ask him.

    I didn’t say “entire streets _are_ (you typed “are” in the present tense) levelled and barren”. You have made that up on purpose, or you have mis-typed: I have _not_ been “misquoted”.

    Or, perhaps as I would prefer to believe, your imagination, clearly fecund, is running away with you without your permission. Of course, I implied that that was the case by 1945. You have only to look at the way that large parts of Bootle have been rebuilt, to know in your heart that this could only have happened from a tabula-rasa of rubble. I’m a Londoner: we got it in the neck too, but London was then still much bigger as a target than Liverpool was, and the effects were more diluted.

  36. Perhaps I will write about Pyong-Yang, and brown plastic bowls in department stores. That’ll satisfy Stephen Black, as it’s one of the cities that I have not visited yet.

  37. Stephen Black

    Exactly as I thought: You’re taking your time to sift through the comments and respond to selected ones. Where’s your response about how long is ‘too long’ for you to fight for the justice of your children being killed and it being covered up by the supposed powers of the country? How long before you accept that people believe that you urinated and robbed the pockets of your dead friends and relatives? Would larger scale and more recent disasters make you accept what had happened if the persons responsible had got away scot-free? Quantify those timescales and let me know whether you would accept those circumstances or not please. Lets see what type of person you are.

  38. Stephen Black

    By all means write about Pyong-Yang and Brown plastic bowls-I would suggest that you might have more knowledge of those two topics than you do of Liverpool, judging by the bullshit you’ve written so far.

  39. David, it is important to point out, Hitler did claim the Nazies were in fact
    a national Socialist Party, I must say london was also tough dodging the
    V2’s agreed.

  40. Anyway, you two think you got a worst deal than anyone else, I can tell you the Germans bombed the shit out of Norwich, we had a large US air base close by, and had to deal with the crashing planes as well. we also got a special treat as the Germans came close to the North Sea they emptied, the mags on the fighters,my mother was shot by a 109, as he decided to open up on children playing in Row, by the fate of god escaping with her life, up until 1970 , broken windows still remained where cannon found they way into living rooms full of people. Only thursday I was down by St benedicts, picking up bricks still left from the bombing raids, everybody got the same, some more than others, nothing to boast about. We got the incendary showers as well.

  41. Mr Karl M Fenn

    Norwich was a hot spot for german air craft, many people did not understand why they bombed the Cathederal, I can tell you why after reading the diary exracts from a 109 pilot, using pilotage navigation techniques, once they reached the tower it was a straight run following the river to the North Sea, one piolt gave an intersting discription of a raid on a full moon, how he followed the river up to the chathedral, then made his way to the midlands using this as entry point to Britian, once you had done a few times it was as easy as cake.

  42. Mr Karl M Fenn

    PS, should hvae read nver bombed, my error, anyway from what i have read I think this is why they left many old building and churches, they played an important role in pilotage navigation, despite the fact they were equiped with wrist compasses in a dog fight or under AA you could soon lose your bearings, not good flying at over 300 MPH, by using memory and pioltage method you could quickly make a new fix out.

  43. Stephen Black

    Karl: Some well written, interesting stuff there..Good info!
    Really refreshing to read something written by somebody who knows about the subject they’re writing about. Nice work.

  44. One of the various points of consensus within the Libertarian Alliance leadership is that the police are a corrupt and broadly malevolent force in this country’s life, and that things would be better if there were fewer of them and they had fewer powers. I now see we are accused of siding with them over yet another cover up.

    About fifteen years ago, we published an attack on Norman Bettison, the police chief in Liverpool, who struck us as a nasty pro-Labour apparatchik, for his treatment of an old man called George Saunders.

    I think that’s about the only official notice we’ve ever taken of Liverpool.

    Will there be much wailing and gnashing of teeth if I add that I’m glad I don’t live there?

  45. Stephen Black

    Most definitely not sir. Let it be said that, indeed, I’m terribly glad that you don’t live here.
    By the same token, I wouldn’t live anywhere else other than Liverpool. I’ve worked all over the UK and never found a city to match Liverpool yet.
    So we’re in agreement: We’ll both stay where we are. Good.
    Night night.

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