Paedomania


On the one hand, the hysteria surrounding the late Jimmy Savile shows the continuing degradation of the English character. Touching up girls in their mid-teens is an unseemly thing to do, and should probably attract some kind of legal penalty. It is, however, rather low on the scale of human wickedness. Yet, while real monsters like Tony Blair go unscathed about their business, Jimmy Savile is being made an unperson as if he were a disgraced member of Stalin’s Politburo. His name and image are being stripped from websites and headed papers. His grave stone has been smashed and taken away for landfill. I’m not sure how long before his body is dug up and ritually dismembered. Doubtless, most Englishmen have not joined the baying virtual mob. But any nation in which this sort of madness is tolerated is plainly not at ease with itself. I mention the Stalin Terror. But the heresy hunts in late mediaeval Europe also come to mind – or the smashing of the unpopular dead in ancient Egypt. This is not how things have so far been done in England.

On the other hand, it is rather funny to see people like Esther Rantzen brought low. Since she may be in litigious mood – indeed, while she may be as pure as thedriven snow in her innocence of all that has been alleged against her –  I’ll not say all that I believe about her character and motivations. But she has done more than almost anyone else to inspire its institutional framework, and I’m glad she may now be herself consumed by the “child protection” hysteria.

Perhaps the witchhunt is little more than Rupert Murdoch’s revenge against the BBC – though, as said, any nation that tolerates this kind of thing is in trouble. If so, he may be doing us a service in the objective sense. It cannot hurt for systematic hypocrisy to be revealed, and for those who have led the degradation of our national character to be brought low.

I often say that we only remove comments from this blog if they seem likely to get David Davis or me into trouble. Sadly, we shall be monitoring comments to this posting with close attention, and have no doubt some will need to be removed.

About these ads

48 responses to “Paedomania

  1. Of course, that is not to say that people should refrain from saying anything. I know that all our regular readership consists of perfectly responsible individuals: however, this post may attract the occasional one-off visitor from places we do not know of.

    • I agree with David. But I am divided between feelings of duty to open up a thread on an important issue, and fear of the consequences. I urge all our regulars to bear in mind that we are walking through a minefield.

      By the way, I suggest that we should indicate where comments have been removed for legal reasons. There is no reason for us to add dishonesty to censorship.

  2. Digressionally, I note from the little maplet-app on the right that we don’t seem to be attracting many readers from the tropical rain forests or upper-Siberia.The rain forests I know to be abodes of, principally, geography teachers and bored, gap-year Western “students” doing “fact-findng”, so our presence there is unsurprising. Siberia however has to be the home of rugged individualists, so I shall be addressing this problem at some time.

  3. I don’t have time for one of my long comments now, so for now I’ll just wonder whether Britain’s first Cadaver Synod will be televised, and whether it will be on ITV.

  4. And also add that it’s still possible to discuss these subjects without falling foul of the law, so long as personal attacks are not involved.

  5. The sense of betrayal felt by some people at the revelations about Savile’s alleged behaviour is understandable given that he portrayed himself as some kind of missionary to the vulnerable. I do believe there is more to it than his using his position to get himself ‘a bit of skirt’. There are allegations of some very serious crimes-many reported at the time by victims or witnesses yet, nothing was done. However, the reaction by some, seems part of a growing trend toward unleashing mob rule. At one time this would have been stamped on. Those who lack reason and give way to pure emotion would have been driven away from the police van, the house, the court and so on in order to protect the defendant.Now the defendant is arrested and imprisoned for his own safety because of facebook comments-facebook contributors-the enemy within. There is a growing sense that you either have to be with or against something. I see it when someone is killed or murdered. Everyone has to grieve-is expected to grieve, wear a ribbon, gather in the street, you have to be seen to be feeling something, applaud at the funerals of people who have been murdered.-where on earth did this come from. Your child must be at risk of psychological harm because someone they met once in the street or the dinner hall has died. So get the counsellors in the school. If your not part of that gang then you must be in the unfeeling uncaring gang. The BBC is no less hysterical and mob like in its reaction. A face saving exercise, focusing as it is on shoving hitherto unheard of individuals within the organisation under the public spotlight and asked to justify themselves. It’s almost an admission of guilt;’we know it happened, so who can we hang out to dry to save our own necks’
    All the while those who claim they are victims of abuse are pushed to one side. There needs to be full investigations of the claims. Only then can there be one into why nothing was done and by whom. But unless it’s carried out in an objective and reasoned atmosphere I fear it will continue to degenerate into a public show of those who are ‘right feeling’ with the real victims used as stage props.

  6. Dear Sean,
    I feel there is a much picture concerning Jimmy Savile and the story has been concealed until after his death and dripfed toa certain extent.From the articles in the press it seems to confirm some of my suspicions from a long time ago.
    Not so obvious is the one liner reports in the press confirming that boys were abused, and the police issued confirmation that a boy had been abused at Haut Garenne childrens home in Jersey.Jimmy Savile denied ever being there and issued a gagging order on the press when widespread abuse was revealed and human remains were found.
    It is obvious that Jimmy Savile was not only obusing children over 6 decades but procuring them for other people with his henchmen involved.
    Other reports mention a seedy flat in East London visited by the likes of Jonathan King and Alan Fluff Freeman.
    Policians are also mentioned including Jeremy Thorpe,Cyril Smith and Edward Heath.
    Edward Heath was the Prime Minister who cured all our woes by sacrificing our national sovereignty to join up with the now bankrupt rioting European Union or Common Market as it was then known.
    Edward Heath was rumoured to entertain children on his boat Morning Cloud.Avery grim report emerged from the Quaker Meeting House in Cambridge where Edward Heath was a speaker in the 1970’s with a first hand account.

  7. I’m getting sick of commenting on this. I have done God knows how many comments at Worstall’s site and now it’s here again.
    The Haute/Jersey goings on?–Go to Wiki–the whole hotbed of torture/murder nonsense was caused by police more interested in publicity than old-fashioned out of date stuff like–oh I dunno–investigating thoroughly before calling press conferences and shooting off their mouths. There are two minor convictions connected with the home from decades before. One person had been a house parent and the other had been a resident of the home.
    The whole” Saville was a procurer of little boys for Ted Heath” crap?. Already dealt with earlier–its shite.
    Now they have got Fluff Freeman–a homosexual AND Johnathon King on the job?. Saville is now not just a molester of a vast number of girls he is also a bi-sexual pervert with time for the boys as well and another career as a pimp to the UK elite.With his TV/DJ career and all the charity stuff he must have had some sort of calvinist work ethic to get thro’ all that .

    Patricia: do you have any links to the serious crimes stories?- because everything I have looked at up to now is far from convincing. The Broadmoor caper is particularly odd. If someone wanted to molest women there must be a vast number of easier targets than women who are being held in a secure psychiatric hospital because they are possibly or actually a serious danger to the public at large. And Saville is supposed to have had his own keys so he could wander about in a high security facility looking for suitable victims out of sight of the guards. And if one of the girls produced a home made shank or blade and removed his genitals he presumably had a back-up plan of some sort.

    Enough.

    • Yes,
      I remember in detail a first hand witness account on an incident not mentioned here wchich corroborates one of the stories on this link.It is a damning indictment of how we have allowed ourselves to be governed by perverts.There was also an icident with the witness’s daughter by a totally different iconic pop stat who has never been mentioned an absolute icon from the 60’s.I believe the girl was underage.The witness died a long time and I never thought too much about it at the time but it all makes sense now.He was frightened his daughter was having sexual relations with an old pop star and wanted to put a stop to it as he was scared he was dying and would be unable to prevent this llaison.I moved and lost contact and heard that the witness had died.The girl was promoting bands if I remember correctly.

    • Yeah,Sorry to disappoint you but I had an eyewitness account about Ted Heath never ever reported, from the organiser at the venue in the 70’s.I do not know if Jimmy Savile was involved in this incident but someone obviously was.
      Also another link to a famous pld pop star not yet reported, there is a connection.
      The venue is a very ancient debating hall with underground chambers and used for concerts at well.

  8. I think the worst to be said about JS – apart from the seat belt campaign and the general bad taste – is that he liked various kinds of sex with girls who would once have been above the age of consent. Unseemly. So far as he may have abused a vague sense of authority to get the sex, possibly fit for criminal proceedings – though too late now.

    What interests me is the media reaction now – and the living, who may now be brought down, some of them justly.

  9. It’s the paediatricians I feel sorry for. And any pedagogues who might be in the Yellow Pages.

  10. Well, like Ecks I’ve been wearing the letters off my keyboard over at Worstall’s about this.

    I do have to say, I watched the interviews and the woman who said he molested her and another girl in a caravan in Jersey was convincing, at least to me. My own impression (and like everyone else this is speculating) is that he was a man who took advantage of what opportunities arose (in the context of a post-war, libertine, pre-hysteria context) and probably on occasion crossed the line into using force, which may be the case with the caravan incident.

    I find the claims of the woman at the centre of this less convincing; ***I’ve just deleted my further opinions in this regard before posting this comment***

    My prediction of a “Steve Lawrence Moment” appears to be coming true. Johnathan Freedland has written of the need for a “Macpherson Moment”. Just as that proved “institutional racism”, we are now surely to have a similar enquiry that will prove “institutional sexism”. Like Lawrence, this is not just a moral panic; it is a major turning point in our polity. It may even be the point that future historians will identify as the defining moment when Victorianism II officially began, after these couple of decades of gradual preparation by the Activists. That is, the historical point when “1960s Liberalism”, with Savile cast as its exemplar, suffered its damnatio memoriae. Which is at least a data point in our own internal Libertarian Movement debate regarding what precisely our opponents are trying to achive, and by what methods. I think this pretty much disproves the paleoconservative theory that They are trying to use libertine amorality to destroy The West by destroying its tradtional family values. “Social liberalism” is dead; and it is the Left who have killed it, not Mary Whitehouse and the Festival Of Light.

  11. The aim of the femmis is the destruction of men and of women who like men, which is most of the population–so perhaps this is just another lead in to the entire “Agenda 21″ caper.
    However, I suspect that many people will soon have more pressing matters to worry about than the New Victorianism tm (except without any of the good things about that era) such as where their next meal is coming from.
    This is my last posting on this topic. There are too many tabloid reading morons out there for reason to have any effect.

  12. Ian B – I think it’s a bit more complex than you say. The morality destroyers and the puritans should be seen as part of the general coalition of interests working to abolish freedom.

    Re your beleif that this is a Stephen Lawrence moment: Few important people want to say rude things about black people. Very many of them, however, want to go on having lots of sex with young people. Expect an orgy (sic) of hypocrisy that will be as entertaining as John Major’s Back to Basics campaign.

    And, by the way, your deletion of detailed comments is a model of how to conduct yourself in our new and happy life.

  13. Sean, do I get any extra brownie points for the Latin? :)

  14. I’m inclined to believe that Savile was an unpleasant dirty old man.However,reading that some of his victims plan to sue th eBBC made me suspicious and cynical.

  15. Let it be known from this day forth that Ian B has earned one Gold Star for his correct use of Latin.

  16. Mark – Are you not aware that the issue of legal proceedings is part of the healing process? It allows victims to draw a line under things and move on.

  17. I think his house on Cathedral Court got sold, didn’t it? They were going to turn itno museum for the great man but no one ever turned up. Will have to ask my Salisbury spies next time I see them.

  18. Mr Ecks; please see comment by Ian B on one of the claims that a young girl was molested by Savile. She created a fuss at the time, told staff and was dragged off to isolation punishment for two days.The other one took place in hospital where a patient witnessed a molestation of a young girl who had brain damage. The witness also made a fuss at the time, telling nursing staff about it.Were these reports/complaints recorded at the time? If so it would support the need for an investigation at least. I haven’t read the Broadmoor report but, presumably those sent there because they are dangerous, will no doubt be suitably medicated if only to prevent danger to the staff. Of course that doesn’t prove they were abused by JS or any one else. However,anyone with a desire to do so could find them easy pickings given the right access to the place. So I don’t think the fact of someone being in Broadmoor means they can’t be victims of crime.

  19. Here’s something that makes all this more interesting. The Kat Ward who was portrayed as daring to come forward and drop anonymity, kind of thing, is an author in the child-abuse-revelations market-

    Her latest is just out. It just happens to cover the alleged Jimmy Savile period of her life-

    -which one can interpret how one wishes. Her author biog-

    “Kat Ward is fifty four and now lives in the United Kingdom on the border of England and Wales. She has seven children, although only three speak to her or have anything to do with her. She also keeps seven cats and two dogs. Kat has a great many tattoos, unlimited opinions and views on nearly every subject under the sun and thinks, in general, the human race is pretty nasty.”

    Hmmm.

  20. I don’t think Ms Ward has been well served by her publisher.

  21. Sean Gabb – never mind the Latin, you misspelt ‘belief’ in your 2:51pm comment.

    The only thing I can say for sure about Savile, having seen him in photos hundreds of times and possibly once or twice on TV, is that he was the most vacuous-looking human being I ever set eyes on.

  22. Rob – I will commit ritual suicide on YouTube for you.

    Re JS: His lack of visible talent was only compensated by his obvious appearance of being a really nasty piece of work.

  23. If Saville was Satan manque, nobody, alive or dead, deserves what is now being done to him without real proof of crime. “Innocent until proven guilty” is
    now as dead as Mr Clunk-click.
    The sooner this country sinks into the sea the better.
    I wish the 21st December 2012 prophecy would come true. At least all the scum who infest this planet would get theirs along with the rest.

  24. Ecks-

    Some time ago- well before the Savilocalypse- the Tim Worstall’s commenter John B reposted a quote from one of my comments at his blog. Seems more pertinent than ever right now-

    “The problem with a society in the grip of a moral panic- an example is the Gay Panic that started in Victorian England- is that it does not recognise it. The hysterical and extreme behaviours exhibited by panickers are considered not only normal, not even just desirable, but effectively obligatory. It’s quite interesting to note that the paedophile as folk devil has almost perfectly replaced the homosexual as folk devil, with only the degree of hysteria being even greater. The fact that many of the victims of this witch hunt are not, as noted above, even recognisably suffering from the aberration described as paedophilia does not matter, because unfortunately when it’s witch huntin’ season all that matters is that one joins in with the hunt (or raise suspicions that one is worthy of becoming the quarry).”

  25. Richard Carey

    I don’t see why any libertarian should object to investigating allegations of crimes, even if they are in the past, if the crimes in question are ‘proper’ crimes – mala in se – that violate the principle of non-aggression, which is most certainly the case regarding rape. If it wasn’t for the free speech-denying libel laws, he would probably have been exposed decades ago.

  26. Richard,

    It’s not that simple. There are grave reasons to be concerned about the Savilocalypse. To address your question directly, though-

    Many common law legal systems incorporate “statutes of limitations”- a time limit within which a crime must be reported. THere are good reasons for this; after many years or decades, there is likely to be little or no evidence to be had. Memories are fallible, and can change radically over the years, so testimony becomes very unreliable. Not least because the people carrying the memories themselves change over the years, and so they will see the events “through different eyes”. Additionally, morals can and do change over time. The libertine morality of the 60s and 70s informed the behaviours of people then; now we are in another puritan phase, wrongdoing which may then have seemed minor or just technically illegal may now seem heinous.

    There is something else worth touching on, though. The English Common law is based on adversariality, and for a very good reason. That is to ensure that both sides of the “argument” are given a fair hearing. The prosecutor and defender each puts forth their best evidence and argument and then another group of people, the jury, who are as best as possible “independent”, come to a verdict. This contrasts radically with “enquiry” type systems, in which a “consensus” is sought, since with the adversarial nature absent, there is no gurantee that a particular view will be robustly presented. And in the case of Savile, since he is dead and no criminal trial- in which he and his lawyers can state their case- can occur, what we are to have is an “enquiry”, and one held in the midst of a mood of hysteria. Can there be any doubt as to what it will find? Who will defend Savile? Nobody. Who will cross-examine the witnesses against him? Nobody.

    There is simply no possibility of a fair trial regarding any of these allegations, despite the fact that we know from previous experience that in such witch hunt atmospheres, allegations which are false due to bad memories, false memories, delusion and pure lying are very common indeed. Crucifying Savile panders to various special interests, ranging from political movements, to individuals in the “campaigning” industries, to individuals looking for compensation, or notoriety, or just a moment of attention. But surely, comes the cry, nobody would lie about such terrible things?

    Watch this young fellow on Oprah Winfrey at the leading edge of the Satanic Panic, stating quite clearly falsely that he had been part of a Satanic murder ritual-

    Was he lying, was he mad, was he looking for attention? We’ll never know. And what of this woman, declaring her participation in a Jewish satanic cult extending over the centuries?

    Lying? Mad? Attention Seeker?

    Some of the allegations against Savile are surely true. Which, we will never know. How consensual any of the acts were at the time, even if regretted by the girls later, we will never know. Whether he touched somebody in a lift because he was a paedophile predator, or because it was the early 1970s and nobody had yet heard of the yet-to-be-invented crime called sexual harrassment, we will never know.

    Ask yourself this. Suppose you were Freddie Starr, and innocent, how would you go about proving that you didn’t “grope” some girl in a dressing room 40 years ago? It may be libertarian to investigate a crime; but it is also libertarian to treat defendants as innocent until proven guilty. It is hard to square the current climate of guilty until proven innocent with any sort of libertarian principle.

  27. Now that the prospect of compensation is almost certain, it will be impossible to know if Savile ever commited sexual assault, or how often, as anyone who ever came within groping distance of him can jump aboard the gravy train.

    The last of the increasingly hysterical headlines on this case that I read was about two days ago. It said that Savile “may have” assaulted “as many as” 60 young people over six decades. Think about that for a minute – one unsubstantiated allegation for every year of a career in which he was in daily contact with young people.

  28. Richard Carey

    Ian B,

    ” It may be libertarian to investigate a crime”

    Agreed

    “but it is also libertarian to treat defendants as innocent until proven guilty.”

    Agreed, but Savile isn’t a defendent, as he’s dead.

    “It is hard to square the current climate of guilty until proven innocent with any sort of libertarian principle.”

    It has all the ingredients that make a big story, so obviously the papers are running with it. What do you suggest? Should the press be ordered to not cover the story, for fear of inciting lynch mobs? Should people claiming to know something about it be denied their free speech? Are we supposed to trust the authorities to deal with such controversial matters behind closed doors?

  29. Richard,

    That some particular behaviour or action is customary or inevitable, and cannot be reasonably prevented, does not render it laudable or desirable. It is in an atmosphere of moral panic that the greatest caution is required, but unfortunately that is also the atmosphere in which it will be least exercised.

  30. Richard Carey

    Ian B,

    fine, let there be caution, let it be clear that lynch mobs are not acceptable, but neither is child molestation acceptable, and if the people are angry, maybe they’ve got good reason to be angry. The criminal justice system is ineffective. It doesn’t make perpetrators give recompense to victims, and it doesn’t hand out appropriate punishments for indisputably criminal acts.

    You asked me what I’d do if I was Freddy Star. You tell me how you’d feel if you were the family of Angelika Kluk, raped and murdered by Peter Tobin, after he had been released early from prison, after he had proven beyond any doubt that he should never have been allowed back into society? I know Tobin’s crimes are far worse than anything Savile has (yet!) been accused of, but the point is that the people have no good reason to trust the authorities with regard to the administration of justice.

    If you’ve followed Christopher Booker’s recent writings, you’ll know that he’s been trying to draw attention to how children can be taken from their families using legal proceedings which are the opposite of every principle of English law. As this Savile business involves a lot of state institutions, maybe the ‘moral panic’ will force some light to be shined into places where it surely should be.

    • It is absolutely essential to make the absolute most of. Both the BBC and the NHS are complicit up to their elbows and the public smell blood. It astonishes me to hear people equivocating about this. Exactly, shine a light on a dark and forgotten part of the state and let light bring justice. It is so important to go on the offensive here and not equivocate. Sean.

    • Hi Richard,
      I am certain there is a bigger picture which has been hushed up at the highest level.I was certain there were boys involved and this has been revealed buried deep in the art.
      icles,and a disturbing factor was that Jimmy Savile was procuring children for other people including the ruling elite who have shielded him for half a century.It has been reported he was providing boys for Uncle Ted,and some of these people must be quaking in their boots,those that are still alive as they do not want the enquiry to touch on these particular subjects and the politically correct homosexuality,through the equalities act
      A colleague’s wife used to organise high profile speaker engagements in Cambridge and the speaker was entertained afterwards by youngsters.This should be possible to verify.The whole episode with Savile has brought this flooding back to me after all these years and I never thought too much about until I read the reportsSir Jimmy was also invited as a speaker at a nearby club and wanted 1000 pounds for an evening presentation.
      I suspect he was working for the intelligence community,much like Rupert and Beccy,Charlie,Andy and James are involved now with David Cameron LOL.

  31. Anyone expecting this, from a libertarian perspective, to harm “the State” is going to be very disappointed. The purpose of a flap like this, as with the Stephen Lawrence business, is to both strengthen the State and bring it under tighter ideological control.

    • “The purpose of a flap like this, as with the Stephen Lawrence business, is to both strengthen the State and bring it under tighter ideological control. ”

      Split infinitive – gold star withdrawn!

  32. I’m afraid you have the better of me, Sean, which is disturbing as I am myself quite the Grammar Nazi.

    “tighter control ideologically”??? “more tightly under ideological control”???

    I do not know what I have done wrong, and up with this I shall not put!

    • “The purpose of a flap like this, as with the Stephen Lawrence business, is to both strengthen the State and bring it under tighter ideological control.”

      The offence is “to*both*strengthen….” You should never place an adverb between a preposition and an infinitive. You should recast as “*both*to strengthen the State and to bring it….”

      Split infinitives are loathsome things – worse than paedophilia and racism combined. You probably go to Hell for splitting them. After my military coup, they will carry the death penalty.

      I hope you find this helpful.

  33. I humbly beg the forebearance of the Split Infinitive Truth And Reconciliation Commission!

  34. Very well, you may keep your Gold Star for “Damnatio Memoriae.” But you have been warned.

  35. L Flint:

    If you have verification of whatever supposed atrocity–then verify it. Don’t keep adding to endless bullshit rumours about somebody who knew somebody whose second cousin knew somebody who was fiddled by a mega-celebrity out of the ark. If Libertarians, proponants of reason, are in the game of “There’s no smoke without fire” (the fire being those pyres on which the accused burn) then we really are all fucked and by a feminista gang every bit as bad as the worst of paedos.

    Also kindly stop repeating the shite about Heath because I am sick of being forced to bring reason to the defence of treason-filled scum like the Sailor Boy.

    • Yeah I can verify it.I lived in the area for a quarter of a century.There was also some concern from the venue about an aging rock star embroiled in an affair with the underage daughter of the witness.He has not been named in the national press.I was road crew as well at other venues in the city where Gary Glitter and the Marmalade were performing at the Corn Exchange.I think that is the right word.

  36. @ Mr Ecks,

    “If Libertarians, proponants of reason ,,, then we really are all fucked and by a feminista gang every bit as bad as the worst of paedos.”

    I’m not quite sure how reasonable this particular statement is.

  37. Road crew travel with the band, they don’t work at particular venues in particular locations. That’s why they’re called road crew. House crew work at particular venues. If you’d been either road crew or house crew you’d know that.

    If you were house crew (or at most from the sound of it, casual house crew) the bands and their road crews would have been just people who arrived and disappeared in a few hours, and you would have known little of their lives. As a casual, you’d have done little more than push flightcases in and out, and get a free view of the show if you were lucky. If you were on Glitter or the Marmalade’s road crews, you would not be writing from this venue-centric perspective. But then, if you had been either, you’d know that.

    So far as one can glean from your comments, you have heard some rumours and have a conspiracy theory woven out of them. That is not actually the same thing as knowledge, let alone verification.

    • Look the witness was from a religous order and I would sooner believe the witness than coresspond with non believers like you.I have heard all your contradictions before and I do not wish to enter a dialogue with you again.Friends in the relogous order which go back centuries have always bben supportive of me most of my life and I have no reason to jabber Oh that can’t be right it is a conspiracy theory etc etc.
      Well you can believe exactly what you want and dismiss me for arock and roll creep because I simply could not care less.
      You can blot out all the treasonous comments about our loveable ex premier who gave away our sovereignty for a pile of worthless Euros as some sort of cross dressing engagement with Dominique Strauss Kahn.Please take your drivel elsewhere as it is becoming tiresome.
      Sorry I could not be bothered to read all the comment,bye.