The Libertarian Alliance: BLOG

Review by Sean Gabb of Kevin Carson’s “Organization Theory”

17 June, 2009 · 90 Comments

Free Life Commentary

Free Life Commentary,
A Personal View from
The Director of the Libertarian Alliance
Issue Number 184
18th June 2009
Linking url: http://www.seangabb.co.uk/flcomm/flc184.htm
Book Review by Sean Gabb

Organization Theory
Kevin A. Carson
Booksurge, 2009, 642pp, $39.99
(ISBN 9781439221990)
Available from Amazon

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439221995/ref=nosim/kayetechsystems)

I will begin my review by stating its main conclusions. These are that Kevin Carson has written one of the most significant books the libertarian movement has seen in many years. I do not agree with everything he says here. I do not suppose any libertarian will unreservedly accept what is said. Even so, I doubt if there is a libertarian who can read this book and not, in some degree, have his vision of a free society enriched and even transformed by it.

Summarising an argument that is worked out over more than six hundred pages is not easy. However, Mr Carson begins by observing that, while economic theory seeks to analyse the behaviour of individuals and small groups within a market system, the economic reality is a world dominated by large corporations within which prices are largely administered and there is an absence of competition.

He asks why this should be so. Why is there so much substitution of hierarchy for individual contracts? The standard answer, provided by Ronald Coase, among others, is that large firms are more efficient than small firms. The further the division of labour is carried, the larger the potential economies of scale. In an open market, however, the division of labour involves transaction costs – these being the costs of negotiating exchanges between many different suppliers of goods and services. Within a firm, these costs are not abolished, but are much reduced. Therefore, a firm will expand to the point where the cost of organising one more transaction within itself is equal to the cost of letting that transaction be made on the open market.

According to this analysis, firms grow large so far as their lower internal transaction costs make them more efficient than their smaller competitors. And there is an obvious temptation to regard size in a market economy as evidence of greater efficiency.

Against this analysis and its conclusions, Mr Carson argues that the point at which internal transaction costs become equal to the costs of transactions via the market has been artificially raised by state intervention. There are few objective benefits in size. Lowest long run average cost is often achieved by rather small scale production methods. There is little evidence that large factories are more efficient than small factories. There is little evidence that large firms are more innovative than small firms. Anyone who looks inside a large firm will see information and management and resource allocation problems similar to those described by Hayek and von Mises in their work on socialist calculation.

For two hundred years, economists have been content to repeat and elaborate on the example of the pin factory described by Adam Smith – in which the operations of making a pin are divided among many workers, thereby raising average output. In fact, these efficiencies can be realised just as easily by dividing the operations so that individual workers perform them one after the other.

If large firms predominate, it is not because they are the outcome of free market forces. Rather, they are called into being by systematic distortions of the market that amount to a subsidy on size. These distortions include the following:

First, there is subsidised transport and communication infrastructure. According to Mr Carson,

[i]t’s… important to remember that whatever reductions in unit production cost results from internal economies of large-scale production is to some extent offset by the dis-economies of large-scale distribution.[p.34]

The British and American railway networks, for example, were built in the nineteenth century by private companies. However, investment was only made profitable by

compulsory purchase laws, or actual grants of land. Without this help, the returns on investment – never very exciting in any event – would in at least most cases have been negative. Once built, though, the railways in both countries enabled the growth of national wholesale and retail markets that could now be served by large firms. The modern road networks were mostly paid for out of taxes, or with loans services by the taxpayers. They did for the concentration of enterprise in the twentieth century what the railways had done in the nineteenth. Distribution costs have thereby been externalised on other users or on the taxpayers.

Again, there is the building of ports and blue water naval defences and the forced opening of foreign markets. Without the very costly work of the British and American navies over the past few hundred years, it would not have become so cheap and convenient to carry goods about the world – a carrying trade that also widens markets and thereby subsidises the emergence of the large firms best able to benefit. There are foreign policies that make other countries more stable markets for large firms. How the Americans organised their southern neighbours for the convenience of the United Fruit Company needs no more than a mention. There is also the hugely expensive oil-based Middle Eastern policies of the British and American Governments during the past hundred years. Even with all the taxes heaped on it, petrol may have been made far cheaper than it would have been in the absence of government intervention. Perhaps, indeed, it is the artificial cheapness of oil that has shaped the whole structure of our civilisation by crowding out smaller scale alternatives.

It may be argued that subsidising transport tends to create large positive externalities. Perhaps it does. Nevertheless, the most visible benefits – being those enjoyed by large firms – have always been smaller than the full costs. As Mr Carson says,

If production on the scale promoted by infrastructure subsidies were actually efficient enough to compensate for real distribution costs, the manufacturers would have presented enough effective demand for such long-distance shipping at actual costs to pay for it without government intervention. …[a]n apparent ‘efficiency’ that presents a positive ledger balance only by shifting and concealing real costs, is really no ‘efficiency’ at all. Costs can be shifted, but they cannot be destroyed.[p.69]

The same can be said of every communications network from national post offices to the Internet. They widen markets at far less than full cost to those who benefit from it. In particular, the satellite-based telephone and Internet revolution of the past few decades has allowed production and distribution right across the world to be organised from a single location.

Second, there are patents and copyrights. In a natural order – that is, in a society without a state – property rights in intangible items would be at least difficult to have recognised. The reason is that, while only one person can possess my notebook computer – and to take it away from me would be an obvious injustice, easily prevented or rectified – this review can be reproduced without limit. Similarly, the computer itself can be copied. In neither case is anyone deprived of his own possession. Intellectual property rights are essentially artificial property rights. They do not derive from scarcity, but from the creation of scarcity. They are essentially grants of monopoly privilege. They can only be created by the State. They can only be enforced by limiting what people can do with physical objects they have bought.

The claim that rights to intellectual property encourage the creation of intellectual property is unfounded. There is much evidence that firms would continue to develop new products in the absence of patent protection. There are many other ways of rewarding artistic creation than copyright. What does seem to be the case, however, is that patents are routinely used to hinder innovation; and the sharing of patents between large firms has the effect of shutting smaller competitors out of the market. And payments for the use of intellectual property enter very heavily into the supply cost of nearly all goods and services. This is particularly the case with pharmaceuticals, where patents serve less to encourage innovation than to increase prices to dozens of times their natural level.

Third, there is the cartelisation of costs brought about by laws prescribing minimum standards of product quality or of fair trading or of payment and treatment of workers. When, for example, cigarette manufacturers are stopped from advertising, there is the same effect on cost and profit as if the companies had agreed among themselves to stop advertising. Mr Carson says:

A regulation, in essence, is a state-enforced cartel in which the members agree to cease competition in a particular area of quality or safety, and instead agree on a uniform standard which they establish through the state. And unlike private cartels, which are unstable, no member can seek an advantage by defecting.[p.80]

Taxes have a similar effect. Value added tax, for example, is applied whenever money changes hands between businesses – above a low turnover threshold, that is. The effect of this is to raise the costs of transactions via the market, without touching those taking place within a firm.

Fourth, there are the incorporation laws. These allow a firm to be defined as an artificial person, with most of the civil rights and obligations of a natural person. One of these obligations is the same unlimited liability for debt as a sole trader has. However, while the firm has unlimited liability, the liability of its owners is limited to the extent of their investment. This privilege alone allows incorporated firms to raise large amounts of capital on the financial markets. Yet, while the shareholders theoretically own them, such firms in practice are the property of their managers, who feel none of the moral responsibility that comes with ownership.

Unless unlucky or badly run, incorporated firms can last forever, and can grow bigger and bigger and more bureaucratic in their organisation. It is no argument that incorporation might still be possible in a stateless society. It probably would not. Whatever the case, incorporation laws enable far more incorporation than would take place where every attempt required costly and time-consuming negotiation and advertising.

By these and other means, Mr Carson says, size of business organisation has been systematically encouraged by the State. Now, those who gain from such enlargement have not been passive or accidental beneficiaries. This is not a matter of “socialist” laws made by economic illiterates that have then worked to the advantage of big business. The world in which we live has been deliberately shaped over the past few hundred years or more by plutocratic elites that have wanted stable markets and docile workers and suppliers. These elites comprise the managerial and rentier classes, politicians and bureaucrats, and the various intellectuals who propagate the ideologies that justify the ruling class as a whole. The justifying ideologies shift over time. But the overall project has been one of centralising economic and political power so that wealth can be shifted upward from those who produce to those who consume.

In this state of affairs, the construction of welfare systems should not be seen as radical attacks from outside, but as an essential support of the established order. The growth of large firms as the dominant business unit has required the virtual conscription of millions of people into hierarchical structures, with the suppression – or at least the discouragement – of their individuality. Apart from regular cash payments, the reward for an almost military deference to authority has been promises of job security and paid holidays and pensions and healthcare. In America, this was made into a cartelised cost on big business. In England and most other countries, it was directly assumed by the State.

We do not live in anything approaching a market order. The state of affairs in which we live is best described as a kinder, gentler feudalism. Those at the top possess fabulous, almost risk free wealth. Nearly everyone else is attached, in extended patterns of fealty, to large organisations – big business firms, state bureaucracies, welfare services, and the like.

This being said, if our modern feudalism is nicer than the old, it is growing nastier over time. plutocratic social democracy worked so long as its inefficiencies could be covered with subsidies from the taxpayers and the exploitation of consumers, and so long as the workers were broadly content with the bribes given to keep them quiet. More recently, Mr Carson says, the crises of the system – overproduction of certain commodities, waste of natural resources, inability to maintain control outside the West, rising discontent within the West, and so forth – have begun to dwarf any means of overcoming them. The response has been a rearrangement of the sticks and carrots. Mr Carson says:

The elites who run our state capitalist economy made a strategic decision in the 1970s, to cap real wages and transfer all productivity increases into reinvestment, dividends, or CEO salaries. So while real wages have remained for thirty years, the wealth of the top few percent of the population has exploded astronomically…. To impose this policy on society, obviously required increasing authoritarianism in all aspects of social life.[p.257]

Because the system is unstable, it may collapse by itself. Or it may require an external push. Whatever the case, Mr Carson hopes for a future world in which statist privilege of all kinds will have been abolished, and in which all costs of economic activity will have been internalised. Such a world, he thinks, will be mostly of small communities, in which food and energy and manufactured goods will be produced and consumed close to market, and in which small-scale – often rather simple – technology will be the rule. Ordinary people, whether by themselves or in free combinations, will look after their own healthcare and welfare and will arrange for the education of their children.

As said, this is a long book, and a full summary of its argument would fill a much longer review article than mine. But this is, I think, the essence of what Mr Carson is arguing. And rather than elaborate on this essence, I think it would be more useful to explain what I find so remarkable about it. What is there to justify the praise that I gave in my first paragraph?

One answer – urged on me by a friend who calls himself an anarcho-communist – might be that Mr Carson has written the definitive refutation of free market libertarianism. To anyone who has read not more than a few pages of his work, this is a superficially persuasive opinion. Mr Carson does not regard himself as a free market libertarian as this term is generally understood. He says instead:

I belong to the general current of the Left so beautifully described by the editors of Radical Technology (‘the “recessive left” of anarchists, utopians and visionaries, which tends only to manifest itself when dominant genes like Lenin or Harold Wilson are off doing something else’). “[p.1]

He does also, I admit, sneer many times at what he calls “vulgar libertarians” – these being people who defend plutocratic privilege as if it were a close approximation to a free market order. I also admit there are such people. The Internet is crawling with people who call themselves libertarians, and who defend the right of a drug company to sell its products in different markets at different prices, and to use the power of the State to suppress private arbitrage between these markets. Ayn Rand and – without her own reservations – her followers worship big business as the highest possible stage of human development. So far as they accept that there is a parasite class, this is the poor and unsuccessful who act via the politicians they have been unwisely allowed to elect to office. The Chicago libertarians for the most part seem to define a free market as little more than “Tesco/Walmart minus the State”. They readily accept that there are groups benefiting from state action, but do not accept the existence of a “ruling class”. And they deny that big business forms part of a system that is inherently exploitative. It might be argued that Mr Carson is attacking free market libertarians for hypocrisy.

But this is not his intention, and I think it would be regrettable if his book were to be regarded as an attack. He also says:

I embrace both the free market and the socialist libertarian camps…. I write from the perspective of individualist anarchism, as set forth by William B. Greene and Benjamin Tucker among others, and as I attempted to update it for the twenty-first century.[p.1]

For all his sneering at the “vulgar libertarians”, Mr Carson’s analysis proceeds much of the time – and with full awareness and acknowledgement – along the same lines as that of Murray Rothbard and of other free market libertarian critics of plutocracy. Almost every page of this book and of all else he has written shows and admits the influence of the Austrian school of free market economics. The Index of this book contains thirty eight references to Rothbard – quotations from his works or generally favourable comments on them. I do not think this famous passage is among those quoted:

Every element in the New Deal program: central planning, creation of a network of compulsory cartels for industry and agriculture, inflation and credit expansion, artificial raising of wage rates and promotion of unions within the overall monopoly structure, government regulation and ownership, all this had been anticipated and adumbrated during the previous two decades. And this program, with its privileging of various big business interests at the top of the collectivist heap, was in no sense reminiscent of socialism or leftism; there was nothing smacking of the egalitarian or the proletarian here. No, the kinship of this burgeoning collectivism was not at all with socialism-communism but with fascism, or socialism-of-the-right, a kinship which many big businessmen of the twenties expressed openly in their yearning for abandonment of a quasi-laissez-faire system for a collectivism which they could control.[Murray Rothbard, Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty (1965), available at http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard33.html]

Even if not quoted, though, the passage shows an obvious similarity of approach. Or we can take a passage from Sheldon Richman that is quoted:

Many self-styled defenders of the free market misunderstand the American system. They believe that under a thin layer of government intervention lies the system they cherish. All we need to do is scrape away that layer, and glorious capitalism will be restored.
They couldn’t be more wrong. There is no thin layer of intervention. Government has intruded deeply into economic activity from the beginning, most particularly in banking and finance, which is by nature at the center of any economy. The web of privilege and control is pervasive, touching all parts of the economy. Moreover, this intervention was never imposed on bankers, financiers, and the rest of the business elite. It was welcomed — to be more precise, it was invited and sponsored by them. Free enterprise, risk, and loss were for the little guy. Partnership with the state was for the elite. That partnership meant favoritism and protection from competition. It meant exemption from market discipline and exploitation of taxpayers, consumers, and workers.[Sheldon Richman, The Corporate State Wins (2008), available at http://www.fff.org/comment/com0810b.asp]

Of course, written in 2008, this may show the influence of Mr Carson rather than any influence on him. But there can be no doubt that Organization Theory is a book written by a free market libertarian of sorts – and is a book that contains much of value to the free market libertarian analysis of actually existing capitalism. Its value lies in three areas. First, it carries the analysis of how plutocracy operates to a deeper radicalism than can be found in much of Rothbard and his circle. Second, he provides an overpowering weight of evidence for this analysis – evidence, I grant, of not always the highest value. Third, he writes from a perspective not often understood by free market libertarians.

I will avoid discussing his views of incorporation, as this is already an emerging consensus within free market libertarianism. I have written something on this myself, and my opinion – that the joint stock limited liability corporation is an unnatural and an undesirable development – is one that I formed before reading Mr Carson, even if this opinion has been strengthened by reading him. What did come new to me was his analysis of how distortions in the transport market tend to subsidise the growth of big business. It is some while since I read Rothbard with close attention, but I do not think he regarded these subsidies as of central importance. Hans-Hermann Hoppe does mention them somewhere in passing as more instances of coerced association. But I think Mr Carson is the first to treat them as of central importance. And once properly understood, they can be used to remove one of the main disputes between libertarians and traditionalist conservatives, among others.

For the better part of two centuries, conservatives have been sceptical of free trade because of its alleged tendency to destroy local patterns of enterprise and the relationships deriving from these. Their complaint has been that the removal of tariffs has tended to deprive large numbers of people – especially the native working classes – of any reasonable market for their services. Against this, libertarians have used the formally irrefutable logic of comparative advantage. If it is cheaper to import wheat or steel from abroad, they have argued, it is economically inefficient and a violation of rights to force people to buy these things from native suppliers.

While irrefutable, however, the theory of comparative cost is usually argued on the assumption of zero transport costs. Once these are taken into account, extended foreign trade may become far less profitable. Richard Cobden once observed that British agriculture was already protected by the high cost of shipping corn from Russia. What has happened since then is the growth of a vast international transport system built or subsidised by the taxpayers. This has brought down transport costs paid at the point of use and enabled the growth of unnaturally large patterns of international trade.

I live in one of the main apple growing regions of England. Even in the autumn, I can go into my local supermarket and find apples on sale from South Africa, from Chile, and even from China. When I drive home every summer from Slovakia, I find myself stuck on the smaller German motorways behind lorries carrying food from Turkey. How much of this trade would make economic sense if price in the shops reflected the full cost of transport? How much would there be if the motorways had not been built by the State, with powers of compulsory purchase and with grants of immunity against tort for pollution? How much would there be if transport companies had to pay the full cost of the wear their lorries made on the roads? How much would there be if the costs of stabilising the Middle East were reflected in the price of commercial diesel?

Adam Smith pointed out that grapes could be grown in Scotland, but that the opportunity costs made this a foolish use of resources. Perhaps it is. But perhaps if the full costs of production and transport entered into price, might it not make better sense to grow our own exotic fruits – especially given our more advanced agricultural techniques? Does it make real economic sense to import every consumer good imaginable from China and the Far East? Would it not be cheaper, in the absence of distortions, to buy television sets from a factory in our home town? Would it not be cheaper to spend more on maintaining most consumer durables than on replacing them every few years?

We are accustomed to laugh at ill-informed attacks on Ricardo and the other economists of foreign trade. But perhaps these attacks do contain factual truths that our own assumptions about trade theory prevent us from understanding. Perhaps if we were to take account of real transport costs, this whole dispute might be seen as another dialogue of the deaf.

The longest section of Organization Theory is contained under the heading “Systemic Effects of Centralization and Excessive Organizational Size”. This is made up of observations that strike me for the most part as common sense – and even common knowledge – but that I have not before seen brought together into a structure of analysis. Indeed, though I did teach management theory for several years, its overall theme was a revelation to me. As said, many libertarians recognise that big business is inherently exploitative. But we have also assumed that it is reasonably productive within its own terms. It is not. As already mentioned, Mr Carson believes that large firms show many of the weaknesses long since indentified in centrally-planned economies. He says:

Individual human beings make optimal decisions only when they internalize the costs and benefits of their own decisions. The larger the organization, the more the authority to make decisions is separated both from the negative consequences and from the direct knowledge of the results. And in a hierarchy, the consequences of the irrational and misinformed decisions of those at the top are borne by the people who are actually doing the work. The direct producers, who know what’s going on and experience directly the consequences of decisions, have no direct control of those decisions.[p.193]

The results of this are an obsession at the top with targets that can be measured and an indifference to local understandings of how work may best be done. Profitability crises are managed by thinly-veiled attempts to make people work harder for less, by “downsizings” that cut measurable costs while destroying intangible patterns of human capital, greater incentives to management to restore profitability, and an interest in fad management theories that talk of “empowerment” and decentralised control, but are just shifts in legitimising ideology to jolly the workers along.

Strikes and other forms of industrial action should not be seen as mindless wrecking, or attacks on property or violations of contract. Rather, they are often attempts by the workers to claw back some of the humanity stolen by them. Nor can what is often the standard libertarian analysis of free contracting be used to justify the increasing authoritarianism of big business. Mr Carson looks at the increasing attempts to control what workers do in their own time:

Vulgar libertarians like to stress that, ‘in a free market,’ workers are free to take their labor elsewhere if they don’t like their working conditions. And many free market libertarians respond with just that advice–frequently in quite indignant terms–in response to workers’ complaints about their employers. Every complaint about employers’ restrictions on their employees’ freedom of speech and association outside of work is met with the response: ‘Well, nobody’s forcing you to work there.’
Well, yes and no. We market anarchists do not propose the imposition of any external constraint on what terms an employer can set as a condition of employment. The question is not whether the state should permit employers to set such conditions, but what kind of a market allows it?

Just how godawful do the other ‘options’ have to be before somebody’s desperate enough to take a job, and hold onto it like grim death, under conditions of stagnant pay, where (thanks to downsizing and speedups) they’re doing their own work plus that of a former coworker?
But never mind those things. How do things get to the point where people are lined up to compete for jobs where they can be forbidden to associate with coworkers away from work, where even squalid, low-paying retail jobs can involve being on-call 24/7, where employees can’t attend political meetings without keeping an eye out for an informer, or can’t blog under their own names without living in fear that they’re a websearch away from termination?[pp.402-03]

This analysis shades into a perspective on libertarianism that I, for one, had never really considered before. I came to libertarianism by reading Whigs like Macaulay and classical liberals like John Stuart Mill and Herbert Spencer. The common tendency of these writers is to view society from fairly close to the top. Liberty is good, they argue at least impliedly, because it means that well-educated middle class people get left alone to live as they please. My libertarian friends were mostly brought over by reading American writers of the twentieth century. Our common opponents have been socialist intellectuals who cry up the plight of the working man as an excuse for expanding state power. Those of us who are English and have reached middle age remember the crises of the 1970s, in which trade union activists seemed to be trying for a pro-Soviet revolution. There is for us a natural identity between property and liberty. And we have been inclined by reading and experience to identify the defence of property with defence of the propertied classes. If we have adopted the more radical approach of Murray Rothbard, it has been to complain at how the plutocratic elites have plundered middle class people like ourselves. Something most of us have never considered other than in passing is the position of those at the bottom – the semi-skilled and unskilled working classes.

Several years ago, I sat down to dinner with David Carr, who is the Legal Affairs Spokesman for the Libertarian Alliance. We discussed at some length what sort of outreach we could develop for those at the bottom. Libertarianism, I said, offered lower taxes to all. So what? David asked. A checkout assistant in Tesco pays little tax, and probably gains on balance from the welfare state. So what about freedom of thought and speech? he went on. These people are not very intellectual. And what of the right to live as they choose? They can already do that. Whatever taxes and restrictions there might be on cigarettes and drink and other recreational drugs, these do not really apply to anyone who is not worried about the occasional brush with the law. Granted – non-libertarian political systems, if they turn totalitarian, murder large numbers of people, and do not usually discriminate by class. But the chance that England will fall under a Stalin or a Pol Pot are not worth mentioning.  Granted – the abolition or hampering of markets means that goods are allocated more on the basis of connections than of price. But the poor lack both connections and money. They are made worse off – but not often in ways they can be brought to consider. Libertarianism is a fine ideology for the productive middle classes and those with the energy and ambition to rise into them. But what about the workers? Our conclusion was to find some way of preaching the benefits of “trickle down” – that the lower classes benefit from how their betters use their freedom – and to hope that some non-libertarian party might wrap up a certain amount of libertarian policy in complaints about the European Union and mass-immigration.

Our discussion was, I must say, a little more sophisticated than that. But the question of how to preach libertarianism outside the middle classes did not get much further than that. Shortly after this, I discovered the work of Kevin Carson, and my view of the question was transformed. His present book draws his earlier work together into one place and reinforces that transformation. The problem with all those patronising Labour apparatchiks and the scum in donkey jackets selling their newspapers outside Underground stations is their prescription. Their diagnosis that ordinary working people are exploited in a system that transfers wealth upwards is broadly correct.

People at the bottom suffer from plutocratic state capitalism because it robs them of the dignity that comes of being respectably poor – that is, being securely in control of their own lives. It raises the price of all goods and services to them. It places direction of their lives into the hands of credentialed elites. It herds them into large state or formally private organisations and subjects them to irrational and authoritarian control of their working lives. It forces them to live in disgusting conditions by preventing them from taking over unused land and building their own homes according to their abilities.

But “[c]onsider” says Mr Carson,

the process of running a small, informal brew pub or restaurant out of your home, under a genuine free market regime. Buying a brewing kettle and a few small fermenting tanks for your basement, using a few tables in an extra room as a public restaurant area, etc., would require at most a bank loan for a few thousand dollars. And with that capital outlay, you could probably service the debt with the margin from a few customers a week. A modest level of business on evenings and weekends, probably drawn from among your existing circle of acquaintances, would enable you to initially shift some of your working hours from wage labor to work in the restaurant, with the possibility of gradually phasing out wage labor altogether or scaling back to part time, as you built up a customer base. In this and many other lines of business, the minimal entry costs and capital outlay mean that the minimum turnover required to pay the overhead and stay in business would be quite modest. In that case, a lot more people would be able to start small businesses for supplementary income and gradually shift some of their wage work to self employment, with minimal risk or sunk costs.[p.549]

This does not talk – as many libertarians do when considering small businesses – about something that might turn its owner into a millionaire. It talks instead about micro-businesses that will never make anyone rich, but will simply make their owners independent of a system that turns them into serfs and bribes them with welfare handouts into becoming electoral fodder for the farce that is plutocratic social democracy. However, all this is presently illegal. There are taxes and regulations that exclude this sort of micro-business. The benefit that libertarianism holds out to the Tesco checkout assistant is not lower taxes on her pitiful and already mostly untaxed salary, but the chance not to work for Tesco.

Let me now turn from those areas where I completely agree with Mr Carson to those where I may disagree in principle, but am inclined to agree in practice. I am not sure if I agree with his opinions on land ownership. Certainly, I have no objection to expropriating South American latifundia and dividing these among the peasants who work them. But these are the product of obvious and usually recent theft overseen by the State. I am less sure about the illegitimacy of the rental income I derive from a second property. I am less sure about the income I hope one day to derive from owning a number of commercial properties. On the other hand, big landowners in England at least are part of the plutocratic ruling class. Most agricultural land here still seems to be owned by the old aristocracy – even if ownership is concealed by trusts and other corporate forms. This ownership prevents the emergence of a self-sufficient farming class. Perhaps there is a case for some confinement of property rights in land to what an owner can reasonably use for himself.

I am also divided on some intellectual property rights. I accept that patents are illegitimate. But copyrights are another matter. I own several property rights from which I do hope to grow rather rich, and – even discounting my personal interests – I think it would be unjust to deprive writers and composers of their royalties. I know that there are other systems of reward that do not rely on grants of monopoly privilege, and these may become more important as the enforcement of copyright grows technically more difficult. For the moment, though, I do look forward to my royalty cheques and do not regard them as ill-gotten.

On the other hand, I accept that copyright laws serve mostly to enrich media companies that are part of the ruling class. The main function of these companies is to brainwash us into accepting the system in which we live, or to moronise us into not being able to notice how we are tyrannised over and exploited. I am not sure.

I am more decided about Mr Carson’s acceptance of the environmentalist claims. I do not believe that we are running out of natural resources. I certainly do not think, as Mr Carson insists, that we are living in the age of “peak oil” – that “the greatest sources of concentrated energy [i.e., fossil fuels] are almost certainly reaching their peak[p.432], and that we shall soon see a decline in their extraction. I will not bother in what is already a long review with digressing on a reply to this claim. I simply do not believe it. That being said, I do like his vision of a decentralised world where energy needs are met locally or in the home. We have lived for around two centuries now in a civilisation powered by oil and coal and gas. WE have got most of our oil from a Middle East that we have had to colonise and generally turn upside down. One cost of our dependence on oil has been the grown of giant oil companies that are leading members of the plutocratic ruling class. Another cost has been radical Islam. However generated, our energy needs have been met by vast, centralised distribution networks over which we as individual have no control, and which encourage us into attitudes of passive reliance on the ruling class.

Yet there are alternative ways of generating and distributing energy. At the moment, these are more expensive than those already established. This is partly because most of the alternatives are not very good in themselves – but also because we have had generations of effort put into making the best of moving large amount of oil around the planet, or distributing electricity and gas via national networks. There is no reason to suppose that these alternatives should always be a joke. That is why I am often unsure about the green movement. So far as it wants to shout down industrial civilisation and return us to the long preceding age when energy consumption was minimal, I stand happily beside the most fanatical and vexatious Randroid. So far as it might be useful to bringing about a world in which energy consumption can rise without limit – but without state-built or state-controlled energy networks – I am inclined to put on a straight face and nod hopefully over talk of wind turbines and solar cells.

Let me now conclude with one purely negative criticism of Mr Carson. I come back to his denigration of the “vulgar libertarians”. Since I probably do not qualify as one of these according to his definitions – and probably never have done – I hope my defence will not be seen as self-serving apologetic. But what have these people said that is so absolutely reprehensible? They have defended the most fantastically productive economic system that has ever been extensively tried. If, judged by the strict standards applied by Mr Carson – standards that I largely accept – this system is lacking. Compared with any other, it is barely the wrong side of heaven itself. It is exploitative at home. Say what other system has not been. It is nakedly exploitative in outlying regions. Again, say what other system has not been. It is riddled with irrationalities and waste of human and material resources. I repeat the challenge. We have lived under something like our present system for at least one century – perhaps two or more. Mr Carson is still free to write up and publish his devastating attack on it; and I am free to give it a more or less enthusiastic review. If the “vulgar libertarians” have given any intellectual support that has enabled the system to survive, they still rank among the benefactors of mankind.

[Following much comment on this Blog and in private correspondence, I have decided to cut several paragraphs that follow]

But this is a matter that takes me far from the subject of this review.  Mr Carson has written a very long book. Even so, it is filled with arguments and insights that, I repeat, will enrich and transform the vision of a free society held by anyone who reads it. Despite what I see as its occasional faults, I heartily recommend it.

NB—Sean Gabb’s book, Cultural Revolution, Culture War: How Conservatives Lost England, and How to Get It Back, can be downloaded for free from http://tinyurl.com/34e2o3

Categories: Austrian Economic Theory · Book Review · Business · Economics · Fair Trade · Liberty · MARKET CIVILISATION · Minimal-Statism · Restraint of Trade · Tesco · Unfair Trade

90 responses so far ↓

  • Sean Gabb’s Review of Organization Theory by Kevin A. Carson // 18 June, 2009 at 1:18 am

    [...] The rest of Gabb’s review is here. [...]

  • Posts about the Drug Cartels as of June 17, 2009 | EL CHUCO TIMES // 18 June, 2009 at 3:43 am

    [...] and The Three Stooges . Original link Related PostsSean Penn Drops Out of ‘Three Stooges’ Review by Sean Gabb of Kevin Carson’s “Organization Theory” – libertarianalliance.wordpress.com 06/17/2009   Free Life Commentary Free Life Commentary , [...]

  • J Grants // 18 June, 2009 at 4:18 am

    Looks like an interesting read.

  • Review by Sean Gabb of Kevin Carson’s “Organization Theory” | General Education Programs | Programs: Education // 18 June, 2009 at 7:05 am

    [...] See original here:  Review by Sean Gabb of Kevin Carson’s “Organization Theory” [...]

  • Julius Blumfeld // 18 June, 2009 at 9:20 am

    Thanks Sean for an illuminating review. As a vulgar libertarian I am grateful for the defence in the last part of your review.

    I will buy the book and review fully elsewhere when time permits. But in the meantime, one thought occurs to me in relation to Carson’s point on subsidised transport costs. It is this. A large proportion of world trade is conducted by ship (I recall seeing a figure of 90% and I suspect this is not far from the truth). Any analysis that does not consider the extent to which world shipping is subsidised (or not), is thus defective. This is not to say that there is no net subsidy in this area, but the question is empirical and the answer is not immediately obvious to me.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 18 June, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Julius – I think he does mention shipping, but mostly in the context of navies to defend it.

  • Richard Wellings // 18 June, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    I very much enjoyed reading this excellent review and look forward to studying the book at length. However, I am also sceptical about the transport subsidies hypothesis. The transport sector is clearly heavily taxed and regulated by the state. At the same time, it is not clear whether transport costs would be higher or lower in an unhampered market economy. They could well be far lower, with the removal of barriers to new technology, no taxes or tariffs, and with strong price incentives to address pollution and land purchase problems.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 18 June, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Richard – it’s very hard to know whether transport is on balanced taxed or subsidised. I agree with Keven Carson that it is heavily subsidised on balance. However, the only way to find out is to get the State out of the way and then find out.

  • Patrick // 18 June, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    A thorough review of a fine work — already well thumbed — upon my bookshelf.

    I’ve penned a few thoughts about Sean’s views on “vulgar libertarians”, and would welcome feedback:
    http://towardsmutualbenefit.blogspot.com/2009/06/gabb-on-carson.html

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 18 June, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    Patrick – Let me respond briefly to this part of your comment:

    “My first point would be that the overall tone adopted by Gabb in the paragraph quoted above is reminiscent of, say, a Negro slave defending his relatively kindly master: Yes, I recognise that I don’t have my freedom, that I, and my fellow slaves, are exploited by our owners, but things could be so much worse. Imagine what our condition would be like were we to suffer under a more brutal owner? No, let’s be thankful for what we have.”

    I think that is pretty well what I’m saying. But let’s clarify the analogy. We are slaves on the only plantation we know where the Master isn’t a complete monster – in which we are allowed to choose our own marriage partners, and to farm our little plots, and to speak our minds even to railing against the institution of slavery. Yes, the Master works us hard on “his” land, and we can see him conspicuously enjoying the fruits of our labour. Even so, he doesn’t behave nearly so badly as any of his neighbours.

    Now, there has always been slavery, and there is virtually no chance that it will end – especially as most of the slaves accept it as a legitimate institution.

    Moreover, there is a chance that some of the Master’s most horrible neighbours will somehow get possession of “his” land. Some of the other slaves look forward to this – either because they have believed the promises of still better treatment put about, or because they see through these lies and hope that despair will drive all the slaves to throw off their chains.

    If I defend the present Master as “not too bad compared with the alternatives”, does this make me some Uncle Tom who should never be taken seriously?

    Though in brief, I think this clarifies your analogy. I accept that plutocratic social democracy is an illegitimate system. But it’s the best on offer, and being glad of its benefits is not inherently wrong.

  • ArticleClump // 18 June, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    Your posts are great! Please keep

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 18 June, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    Here is a point Richard Garner makes against me. I think it is an important one, even if I don’t agree with it, and think it is worth publishing more widely:

    I’m not sure about the criticisms of “many from Mr Carson’s tradition” who thought the Soviet
    “experiment” should be given a chance. Whilst I am not sure what tradition of Mr carson’s you are
    referring to here, I’m not sure there were many prominent “left anarchists” who supported it at all.
    Victor Serge is the only person I know who was an anarchist communist and converted to state
    socialism as a result (and his apologia for that contains the excellent insight that all anarchist com
    munists are local centralisers). Fairly soon after the consolidation of Leninist rule Kropotkin was
    placed under house arrest. George Woodcock said that Kropotkin’s funeral, shortly after, was the
    last time black flags flew openly in Russia until the fall of the USSR. Anarchist observers from
    abroad, like Alexander Berkman and Emma Goldman left in dismay and horror. There were
    anarchist influences in the Kronstadt rebellion *against* soviet centralism and also, of course in
    Makhno’s activities in the Ukraine, which resulted in Makhno’s confrontations with both White and
    Red armies. And this is all from an anarchist comunist versus Soviet perspective, which is not even
    the tradition Kevin is claiming to be a part of. I took a look at my old battered copy of James
    Martin’s Men Against the State to see if there was mention of Tucker’s views on the Soviet
    situation. There wasn’t, but there was a passage in which Martin writes, “On the world scene of the
    mid-1930s, Tucker’s views were unequivocal. ‘Capitalism is at least tolerable, which cannot be said
    of Socialism or Communism,’ he declared, going on to observe that ‘Under any of these regimes a
    sufficiently shrewd man can feather his nest.”

  • Ian B // 18 June, 2009 at 8:41 pm

    Sean, I’ve been trying all over the commentboxosphere to get libertarians to try to appreciate the “workers problem”- that is that until liberty can be sold to the “checkout assistant” it is a waste of all our breath. I have some time ago reached the same conclusion as you draw in your review and refer to Mr Carson expounding- that of “liberation from the workplace”. (I also think that this is going to be “obligatory” when robotics and expert systems/AI really come into their own, shortly, as the era of mass industrial labour will come sharply to a close, and the only alternative will be mass unemployment and terrible economic disaster, but that is another matter). So I’m glad to see it being discussed here.

    There are too many libertarians who, when asked about those they consider lesser mortals, effectively say, “well f*ck them, they’re none of my business” without applying the modicum of rudimentary analysis required to realise that until one has a solution for “the masses”, one has no solution at all.

    I mentioned recently at Samizdata that the marxist problem- “the workers do not own the means of production”- is not solved by marxism, as it just transfers ownership to the state. Whereas libertariaism- applied with thought- does answer this question, much as discussed above, by shifting from what we may term state capitalism or mass capitalism to “individual capitalism”.

    I think we need to be thinking in terms of what one might call in soundbite terms the abolition of employment. That is, economically gradually (or even quite rapidly) shifting away from the very idea of master/serf employment contracts to seeing individuals as traders. The current whole economic system is predicated on employers and employment and it is from that presumption that so many economic follies emerge- particularly the focus on “creating jobs” rather than allowing people to be productive (in and on their own terms).

  • ArticleClump // 18 June, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    Thats Very interesting. Please continue to post. I really enjoy reading them!

  • Ian B // 18 June, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    There’s me mentioning robots, and it appears we’re conversing with one. How fascinating!

    :)

  • Tim Starr // 18 June, 2009 at 9:16 pm

    Taking all the facts into consideration, I see little evidence for any centralizing effect of transport subsidies. Privately-funded roads and canals preceded railroads and freeways in the 18th century. Subsidies came later, after improvements had already been proven in the marketplace. The best transport systems have always been those that followed pre-existing travel patterns; e.g., the Erie Canal followed a trail my Mohawk ancestors had long been using for transport from the Hudson river to Lake Ontario. The first people to make it big in shipping in the modern era were my Dutch ancestors, who did so with ships stripped of any military utility and designed strictly for transport. They relied upon diplomacy and free trade for protection, not naval power. Oil was also originally proven more efficient than its predecessors (whale oil and coal) without subsidy. The resulting reduction in transaction costs benefited all, not just large firms, and would tend to reduce firm size rather than increase it. Other factors must explain increased firm size.

    As for increased firm size, I’m far from convinced that the size of the average firm has gone up. Rather, a few firms are quite large. The main explanation for this seems to be technological discoveries with mass application and production methods that are costly to replicate. Those replication costs can be exacerbated by intellectual property laws, and on that point Carson is correct.

    Also, there was no cap on real wage compensation in the 1970s, that is simply a Left-wing anti-capitalist myth. There was a shift from wage to non-wage labor compensation, primarily retirement and health care benefits. Taking this into account, real labor compensation has risen steadily since the 1970s.

  • Patrick // 18 June, 2009 at 9:50 pm

    Sean — thanks for reading and responding.

    You quote Richard Garner above, who pointed out that that Tucker stated:

    “Capitalism is at least tolerable, which cannot be said of Socialism or Communism”

    which I believe is fairly close to your rebuttal of the main thrust of my argument?

    I would counter that it is precisely because state capitalism is more tolerable that it is so pernicious. Whilst the ‘evils’ of the alternatives are blatant enough to be obvious to many, those of our hallowed system are far better hidden. Consequently, there is considerable inertia to change — why would Joe Public demand it if what we have is “the best on offer”, as you put it?

    This is one the prime reasons that I honestly believe that we libertarians must strive to both constantly attack the current system (i.e. pointing out its exploitative nature), and to exercise extreme caution in any dealings with those who tacitly support the status quo.

    I do appreciate that you may desire to foster a ‘big tent’ approach in your efforts to free society from statism, but am personally very cautious about lying down with dogs, lest I rise with something unpleasant.

    The current economic convulsions offer us an infrequent opportunity to place some distance between ourselves and those who have been lauding the benefits of the (non-existent) free-market for the last few decades. It strikes me that now is precisely the wrong time to be embracing those who have consistently supported the ancien régime, thus granting them much needed succour in their hour of need.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 18 June, 2009 at 9:59 pm

    Patrick – Perhaps. However, there may be 500 people in England who want a radical libertarian utopia, and perhaps ten times that many if you could lecture them for a fortnight. In the meantime, there are millions who are discontented the the present order of things and who want a slightly more libertarian alternative.

    I’m not in the least suggesting we should go quiet on saying what we believe. But I do urge the value of being friendly with as many discontented groups as we reasonably can.

    But I think this is a difference of strategy over which we can agree to disagree. Your methods don’t get in the way of mine. And since I try to be honest with all audiences about what I think and want, I don’t think I get in your way.

  • Nathaniel Tapley // 18 June, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    Thank you for this review. I enjoyed it very much, and it’s a work and set of ideas that I find really exciting.

    However, it was spoilt a little for me at the end, when you say: “But these people never turned a blind eye to, or put a pleasing gloss, on anything approaching in its evil the collectivisation of the Ukraine or the Great Leap Forward.”

    This, of course, is either disingenuous or very carefully worded.

    You don’t have to scratch a vulgar libertarian very deeply before all sorts of deeply unsavoury views come bubbling out.

    Whether it be defences of Pinochet: (see the first comment on this post: http://pastichio.blogspot.com/2009/06/enough-is-e-fucking-nough.html ), vicarious glee at the murder of local government officials ( http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2007/01/petty_tyranny_i.html – Interestingly, Perry went very quiet about this when it became clear that the murderer he so admired was the failed Socialist candidate for mayor); and, my particular favourite, defences of the Chinese regime: here’s ‘libertarian’ commenter Wobbly Guy on Samizdata (http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2008/11/obama_in_the_wh.html):

    “That’s it. I’m pinning my hopes on China. I don’t care if the Chinese
    are authoritarians. They believe in capitalism, and I’m throwing in
    with them.”

    Vulgar libertarians very rarely see a jackboot they won’t queue up to lick.

    However, as I’ve been arguing for a few days now, our instinctive reactions as to whether or not we are left- or right- or vulgar- libertarians cloud a lot of issues, and are more emotional than substantive in many cases. (Not that there aren’t substantive issues, but that even they – in the debate between Kevin Carson and Paul Marks on this site, say – become hugely distorted by the suspicion that some of us are ‘left’ or ‘right’. We get so hysterical we end up call each other ‘enemies of Western civilisation’ of ‘people who haven’t seena jackboot they wouldn’t queue up to lick’.)

    As you show, by taking an otherwise excellent review and closing it with a piece of spiteful, petty, reactive non-thought. To wit: Some people who may agree with Kevin Carson (although I am unable to come up with examples) may have once believed in a system of thought that was inimical to that which they now hold, despite their not saying so. As an example of this here is a quotation from someone who did not do just that. He didn’t, but the rest of you were tempted to. You authoritarian bastards.

    When you see someone calling themselves a libertarian standing up for military dictators, by all means call them out (you don’t have far to look, Samizdata isn’t difficult to find), but don’t pretend that the real problem is the voodoo left-libertarians whom you can imagine holding unpleasant views.

    Mneh. Enough. I’m boring myself.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 19 June, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    Oh, very well – I won’t cut my defence of the vulgar libertarians, but I do withdraw my sneer at the left libertarians. I’ll cut it from the version hosted on my own site. I did the review at onde sitting, and was beginning to run out of steam when I got there. Perhaps I should have waited a day before publishing.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 19 June, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    For the avoidance of any doubt, I withdraw the following from my review:

    This may not be the case with many of the “left wing libertarians” Mr Carson counts among his friends and influences. I am not attacking him. Nor am I accusing all libertarians outside my own cluster of traditions of being closet Stalinists. …. [I will not quote the rest]….Yes, I am embarrassed to share a movement with defenders of Monsanto and the fake privatisations of Margaret Thatcher. But these people never turned a blind eye to, or put a pleasing gloss, on anything approaching in its evil the collectivisation of the Ukraine or the Great Leap Forward.

    Now that the threat of Soviet state socialism has gone, and now that the prime threat to liberty is a New World Order backed by our plutocratic elites, the time has come to forget past differences, and for all those who believe in liberty to work together and learn from each other. This means that we should all consider what we or our friends may have said or defended in the past. When all this is said, however, I am happier to share a movement with “vulgar libertarians” than Soviet stooges.

  • Richard // 19 June, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Sean, an excellent review. I would be interested to know your opinions on Carson’s overproduction thesis i.e. that there is an artificially high level of production caused by government subsidies and interventions that cannot be absorbed by the consumer, hence the need for Keynesianism (government inflation of the money supply directed at consumers). I believe Carson also says that Keynesianism wouldn’t “work” in a true free-market economy but is necessary as a corrective to the current corporate economy.

  • Tim Starr // 19 June, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    Noam Chomsky is a rather obvious example of a left-libertarian apologist for Stalinist/Maoist regimes. For example, at the height of the Great Leap Famine, he claimed that Maoism could at least feed the Chinese people. He defended the Viet Cong, making propaganda broadcasts on Radio Hanoi, and he later went on to cast doubt on Cambodian refugees who accurately reported the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge. He generally defended Soviet aggression by characterizing everything the USA ever did to resist Soviet aggression as a crime against humanity. Most recently, he accused the USA of planning a “silent genocide” in Afghanistan when we went to war against the Taliban, and has been defending the openly genocidally anti-Semites of Hamas by characterizing Israel as the aggressor in the Middle East.

    As for the claim that “vulgar libertarians” have from time to time defended military dictatorships, that is true, but none of those dictatorships have been anywhere near as bad as the totalitarian communist regimes defended by left-libertarians.

    Perhaps individualist anarchists do not share in the guilt for these left-anarchist actions. However, they would do a better job of avoiding the blame if they didn’t echo the anti-capitalist myths originated and propagated by the apologists for Communism. (Such as the “declining real wages since 1970″ myth that I mentioned before.)

    Finally, if Carson truly believes that inflationary monetary policy is a “corrective” for overproduction, then he’s got it backwards. Inflation is the cause of overproduction (malinvestment, really), not its cure.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 19 June, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    I don’t think he is talking about a general oversupply. I think instead he is saying that government distortions cuase an oversupply of certain commodities.

    As for Keynesianism, I am inclined to agree that a burst of inflation may be the least bad solution when markets are so corporatised that big companies would sooner cut output and employment than prices and wages.

  • Organization Man | Austro-Athenian Empire // 21 June, 2009 at 11:17 pm

    [...] too busy to blog right now about where I agree and where I disagree, but check out Sean Gabb’s review of Kevin Carson’s Organization [...]

  • Kevin Carson // 24 June, 2009 at 4:47 am

    Thanks very much, Sean.

    Tim: Re transportation, what matters is not so much whether privately organized transportation is possible, or whether it can operate at a lower real unit cost, as on whom the burden falls.

    An inefficient system beats the most cost-efficient system in the world when somebody else is paying for it, and you’d have to bear the full cost of the efficient system yourself.

    And consider how much lower the total capacity of the private transportation system was compared to that of the state-subsidized system.

    I consider it unlikely in the extreme that a centralized system of railroad trunk lines would have come about on anything remotely approaching that of the actual system, absent the railroad land grants and direct subsidies.

  • Tim Starr // 24 June, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Kevin: Thanks for your reply. I do realize that I’m arguing with a review of your book, and that your full argument may fill in some of the gaps I’m seeing. However, I still see the same gaps in your reply that I saw in Gabb’s review. To wit:

    1) I disagree that mere externalization of costs onto the taxpayers necessarily has a centralizing effect upon firm size; or, I hold that other factors may push in a decentralizing direction and trump any centralizing effect of negative externalities. After all, not all firms are large, even though virtually all of them benefit to some degree from goods whose costs have been externalized by the State.

    2) Nor does the mere fact of tax-subsidy mean that large firms benefit more than small ones from the subsidies. As you say, it depends on whom the burden falls, and State-funding is not necessarily regressive. In theory, for instance, a State financed entirely by progressive corporate income taxes would not fall subject to this criticism.

    3) Historically, there has often been a high correlation between tax-payers and tax-beneficiaries. For instance, the US Federal governments original revenue stream came in large part from tariffs, which went in part to pay for the US Naval frigates that protected US commerce from the likes of the Barbary Pirates.

    4) I also disagree with the claim that an inefficient system with tax subsidies will necessarily succeed over more efficient systems without tax subsidies. Your claim seems to be that the only reason why any centralized systems have succeeded is because they were tax-subsidized; in short, they’re successful because they’re subsidized. However, I gave numerous examples of transit systems comparable to present subsidized ones that were not subsidized. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of subsidized transport systems that are failures, such as most light rail systems which carry far less passengers than freeways (or Amtrak, for that matter). The fact that they’re subsidized is not determinative of their success. The subsidies can have all sorts of other bad effects, of course. I think you need to allow for cases in which things are subsidized because they are more efficient (which is not to say that their subsidies are justified by that efficiency).

    5) As for whether “a centralized system of railroad trunk lines” could’ve come about without subsidies, I believe the SF Bay Area’s Key Route was an example of that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_Route

    Perhaps that’s not exactly what you mean by “railroad trunk lines,” but if not then I think it’s close enough to serve as a proof-of-concept.

    (BTW, San Francisco also has private police forces, too – the SF Patrol Specials.)

  • Rich // 25 June, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Brilliant stuff, Sean. Keep it up.

    I first started thinking in these terms myself a few years ago when I heard that the nearby Queen’s Market in Upton Park was to be taken over by Asda.

    I couldn’t get my head around this because I considered Queen’s Market to be a remarkable place: you could get a 10kg bag of onions for £1,
    and the quality and range of stuff there was huge. Plus, it had a “market feel” to it, was as cosmopolitan as you can get, and late in the day traders would drop their prices. At the end of the day they would give away stuff to the known “needy” of the area (including handicapped and infirm people, as I remember).

    To think that such a place – not only cheaper than any supermarket, but with better quality produce, with a real vibrant atmosphere and no wastage – could conceivably be replaced by an Asda, of all things, was a bit of a wake-up call for someone, like me, who until then believed in the supremacy of the “free market system” as I saw it.

    Fortunately in this case the battle to keep the market was won:

    http://www.radicalactivistnewham.org.uk/2006/06/queens-market-asda-throws-in-towel.html

    As your analysis shows, however, the economy in general has not been so lucky.

  • Graham Asher // 25 June, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    A very interesting and thoughtful review. I particularly like the example of the brew-pub. Key quote: “The benefit that libertarianism holds out to the Tesco checkout assistant is not lower taxes on her pitiful and already mostly untaxed salary, but the chance not to work for Tesco.”

    I rather admire Tesco but I take the point about the modern state bolstering large organisations and making it hard for smaller ones to get a foothold.

  • David Davis // 25 June, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Apologies for that comment being held up in a moderation queue: there is no “system” in place currently, and I will investigate.

  • Dale B. Halling // 26 June, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    The “scarcity theory of property rights” is being advanced by a number of scholars at the Cato and Von Mises Institutes. Using this theory they suggest that there is no justification for intellectual property rights. The logical conclusion of their theory is intellectual labor is not deserving of pecuniary reward.

    Are they correct that scarcity is the basis of property rights? See http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/22/scarcity-%e2%80%93-does-it-prove-intellectual-property-is-unjustified/

    Is the conception of ideas and inventions subject to scarcity? See http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/25/scarcity-and-intellectual-property-empirical-evidence-for-inventions/

    Is the distribution of ideas and invention (technology diffusion) subject to scarcity? See http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/25/scarcity-and-intellectual-property-empirical-evidence-of-adoptiondistribution-of-technology/

  • Paul Marks // 27 June, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    The prices charged for goods and services by companies and mostly not a result of supply and demand – but are “administered” prices instead.

    Not true.

    There is little competition between companies.

    Not true either.

    Thank you Dr Gabb.

    I have decided to assume that you are telling the truth about the contents of Mr Kevin Carson’s book.

    The book is, therefore, both not libertarian and worthless (being based on things that are not true).

    Your review means that I have no need to read the 600 page work.

  • Tim Starr // 29 June, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    Mr. Halling is simply wrong that the history of intellectual property law has anything to do with not being a slave. Copyrights and patents began as grants of monopoly privilege by the Crown – the same monarchies that practiced slavery themselves.

    He is also wrong that the logical implication of the theory that no legal monopoly should be attached to intellectual products is that intellectual labor should be uncompensated. Plenty of goods are produced profitably without any copyright or patent protection, such as wood stoves, ketchup, or high-fashion designs. These goods are purchased because of their quality, novelty, or the prestige of getting them from a reputable creator.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 10:14 am

    One thing that has not been explored in this thread is manufacturers (the great majority before the late 19th century) who were not limited liability enterprises – and did not profit from patents (again the great majority).

    There is a general assumption in the discussion of Kevin Carson’s work (not just this book, but his general work) that what he is against is two things – limited liability (i.e. the thing that churches, cooperatives, charities, mutual aid socieites and so on are based on as well as for profit corporations) and patents (of course this is a different thing as an unlimited liabilty enterprise may use patents and a limited liabilty one may not – there is no automatic connection).

    However, I hold this to be a false assumption. I hold that Mr Carson would also oppose unlimited liabilty private factory owners as well.

    In short that the talk of “corporations” and the talk of “patents” is just a diversion tactic.

    It would be easy to refute me – all Mr Carson would have to do is to write in support of the various private factory owners who were not limited liability operations.

    “Oddly enough” he has never done this.

  • Sean Gabb // 30 June, 2009 at 10:21 am

    I am so pleased that Mr Marks is willing to believe that I am telling the truth about this book. I cannot say how happily I shall lie down at night to sleep.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 10:37 am

    It is of course better to avoid having lots of government regulations (over and above the Common Law). But to say the selling of a state owned enterprise is “phony” because it is still regulated by the state is not true.

    Network rail is a phony company because it is 100% owned by the government.

    But British Telecom (even if it goes bankrupt – whether due to the regulations or due to bad management) is not a “phony” company because it operates in an industry that is regulated by the government.

    So it would be correct to say “Mrs Thatcher’s privitizations would have been better if the industries had not been regulated” not “Mrs Thatcher’s privitzations were phony”.

    To hold the latter position (to hold there is no fundemental difference between some, regretable, level of regulation and state ownership) is to hold there is no fundemental difference between North and South Korea or between Germany and the old East Germany or between the United States under Ronald Reagan and the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

    Pure libertarianism must always be the objective (we must be satisfied with nothing less), but to imply that there is no fundemental difference between the above societies is false.

    I can remember a time when most Libertarians had no support for such ideas as “state capitalism” or the idea that we were in a corporate state no better than socialism. In fact I hold that this is still the case for most libertarians – although sadly some of us have changed (of course I have changed to – I am a bald man now and, rather more important, in chronic bad health, but my soul has not changed).

    People who forget that, whatever their many flaws, Ronald Reagan and Mrs Thatcher were heros and the struggle against Marxism around the world was a noble struggle, need to lay down in a cool dark room till they “find themselves” again.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 10:42 am

    I note with interest that Dr Gabb has not dealt with any of the specific points that I have made.

    As he is an honest man (still, he has changed in other ways but not in that) I do not believe he is capable of doing so.

    Dr Gabb faces two alternatives – either accept the truth of what I said, or try and lie his way out.

    I predict he will do neither.

  • Ian B // 30 June, 2009 at 11:17 am

    I can remember a time when most Libertarians had no support for such ideas as “state capitalism” or the idea that we were in a corporate state no better than socialism.

    Then clearly you haven’t read any Murray Rothbard. It was far from his only point, and he did not apply the analysis in the direction Carson has, but his analysis of the USA (applicable to the Anglosphere) is quite clearly an analysis of its coporatism, which is distinct from Marxism.

    The USA, UK and other anglosphere countries have never voted for, nor been ruled by, communists. Our socialism is reformist “progressivism” which has at times incorporated half-heartedly various ideas from communism, such as nationalised industries. That is not the same thing.

    It is hard to read American economic, social and industrial history and not see the descent into statism as a result of cooperation between corporate groups and government. And neither is this analysis new. As I said, Rothbard’s writing is full of it. Libertarians who refuse to see the central role of the supposedly private sector in our current problems are simply missing a vital element necessary to understanding.

    I don’t agree with where Carson runs with this insight, personally- I think the belief that a free market would be localist and not globalist is absolutely potty for instance[1]- but that does not mean that those who blindly support corporatists have got it right either.

    [1] You can’t have a semiconductor fab in every town. You can’t have a TV factory making local televisions for local people in every town. Even if you decided on the inefficiency of that, they could only assemble parts sourced from all over the world. A truly free market would be, I contend, intensely global in nature.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 11:46 am

    I said “most” Ian – not “all”.

    By the way Murry Rothbard did not hold that there was no fundemental difference between the United States and the Soviet Union – he “just” did not support opposing the Communists.

    The dispute between Frank Meyer (and others) and Murry Rothbard (and others) was not over whether there was a fundemental difference between the United States and the Soviet Union – it was over such things as the Korean war (Vietnam is a more complex matter as Meyer had a big problem with the tactics and objecives of both L.B.J. and Nixon – as Ronald Reagan did at the time).

    To be fair Rothbard was totally consistant – he also opposed resistance to the Nazis. Or rather he opposed American government resistance.

    He was a fine with volunteers going over to get killed in a doomed private enterprise resistance to the Nazis.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 11:50 am

    I never met Murry Rothbard, by to imply that he held that West German or South Korea or the United States were no better than socialism is a gross libel on him – although I fully accept that, in law, one can not libel the dead.

  • Ian B // 30 June, 2009 at 11:56 am

    By the way Murry Rothbard did not hold that there was no fundemental difference between the United States and the Soviet Union

    I never claimed he did, Paul. It would help if you would reply to what I wrote, rather than what you wish I wrote. I clearly stated that anglosphere statism has a different character to communism, that is it is corporatist in nature, which is consistent with Rothbard’s analysis of the growth of the state in the USA.

    Please note also that “corporatism” does not mean just business corporations, but a state in which collectives- corporations- interact with and run the government. These corporations may be business corporations, but also may be industry groups, “charities”, pressure groups, “NGOs” etc etc.

    Nobody is claiming that we are living under communism. You’re fighting a straw man.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Yes I know what corporatism means – although even Mussolini did not achieve it in practice (in fact it was never really his objective – it was more of a propaganda thing).

    Ludwig Von Mises covers the matter in Socialism and Human Action.

    I fully apologise for mistaking your intent.

    If your intent was to say “Britain and the United States are very far from libertarianism and Rothbard pointed this out” then I agree with you 100%.

    I also accept that things are a lot worse now than they were in the 1980’s.

  • Sean Gabb // 30 June, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    I cannot be bothered with Mr Marks and his claim that I am not a liar, but might be inclined to become one to escape his otherwise inescapable logic. I will simply note his implied claim that I am somehow less of a libertarian than he is. Now Mr Marks is a Conservative Councillor. According to The Conservative Counciller’s Guide,

    “Once you are elected as a Conservative councillor it is important to remember that you have been elected to speak in support of Conservative principles. You need to consider your actions whether making a speech or voting in council to ensure that it reflects our overall objectives.”

    This being so, would Mr Marks care to state, here on this blog, whether he believes in the complete relegalisation of all recreational drugs, in the repeal of the Obscene Publications laws, in the relegalising of incest between consenting adults, and in restoring the right of adults to walk into a gunshop and, without showing any permit or identification, buy as many guns and as much ammunition as they please – and to carry about and use these weapons for the protection of their life, liberty and property?

    It does no harm to ask. The answer will be interesting to me, and, I am sure, to many other people.

  • Paul Marks // 30 June, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    I asked first Dr Gabb.

    You made statements that were not true.

    Namely that the prices for goods and services provided by private companies are not mostly determined by the market – but are “administered” (i.e. just dreamed up by corporate managers) instead. This claim is untrue.

    You also said that there is little competition between companies – which is also blatently false.

    However, you also made clear that these positions were not dreamed up by you – they were the postions of Kevin Carson and were the basis of his book. I do not know whether you believe in these positions or not.

    I pointed out, that, if you were correct, the book was both unlibertarian and worthless – because (by your own statements) it is based on things that are not true.

    As for your own questions – you seem to be making some sort of threat i.e. that if I give replies contrary to the policy of the Conservative party you will report me. Spread it around and so on.

    If you are not making such a (cowardly) threat that why quote the words you just did?

    You have changed a lot Sean Gabb – when I knew you were not a coward and a bully which you, sadly, seem to have become.

    However, I am on record as opposing the firearms laws and I still do. Although I rather doubt any firearm retailer would sell to an unknown person (to do so would run the risk of tort action quite apart from any criminal statute).

    I was unaware that incest ever have been “legal” – unless your word “relegalized” is an error (I admit I make typing errors a lot myself). I have no need to hide any past opinion supporting incest – because I have never supported it (what on Earth are you talking about?).

    On drugs I have pointed out that drug abuse was far less common in the 19th or early 20th century than it is now – well before any statutes were passed.

    I now point this out again.

    As for pornography. This country is saturated in it (so any statute that still exists appears to a be a dead letter – much as I have always argued that such statutes can not create the morality they claim to).

    As Gladstone rightly put it “of one thing I am certain, the state can not produce moral improvement”.

    I have repeatedly said that I agree with Gladstone on this point – and I now say so again.

    As for other things you might use against me:

    I have seen pornography myself – for example I (briefly) watched a show called “Naked News” on the “Playboy” station – and was horrified. Although not by ladies with no tops on – but by the support the show gave to a Chinese film claiming that American P.O.W.s were well treated during the Korean War, Mao (the biggest mass murderer in human history) was a nice guy – and that the Americans were only too glad to get away from the “oppressive” United States of Senator McCarthy.

    Now rush off to report me.

    Or alternatively – find the man you used to be.

    The man who would have not supported Reds like Kevin Carson.

    And you know in your heart that a Red is what Kevin Carson is.

  • Johnathan Pearce // 30 June, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    As far as I know, the basic point Sean was making in his review was that, while he had disagreements with some of Mr Carson’s views, he shared his general attack on the corporatist model of business that now operates in much of the UK. I personally think – having been covering financial affairs myself for many years – that we have a sort of mixed economy, with pockets of entrepreneurial vigor mixed with a lot of government-influenced business.

    I think the issue of limited liability, as Carson addresses it, is a mistake. So long as one knows one is dealing with a ll corp., then caveat emptor surely applies. I do not think that ll would necessarily disappear if the relevant companies acts were repealed; the benefits of being able to ringfence liabilities in some ways are too great.

    Not all writers who are published by the LA will be totally consistent; I once remember we published something by a supporter of Henry George, who challenged ideas of land ownership, which is hardly a very libertarian stance. But he said things that were, nonetheless, interesting. The same applies to Mr Carson.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 30 June, 2009 at 7:25 pm

    Mr Marks calls me a coward and a bully. I am a coward, apparently, because I fail to give chapter and verse on a point summarised from a book that I have reviewed. I will not do so because I am not the most appropriate person to do this. Mr Marks should take his question to Kevin Carson, and this time try to keep his temper.

    As for being a bully, I again fail to see what the man is talking about. My reason for asking those questions was to establish just how hypocritical Mr Marks has become. He is a Conservative Councillor. The Conservative Party is by no stretch of the imagination a libertarian party. Either Mr Marks has abandoned the libertarian principles lack of which he makes a point of denouncing in others – or he is in breach of Conservative Party rules.

    The Sean Gabb Mr Marks used to know may have seemed a nicer person. But he had yet to be moved to such derisive contempt by the spiteful, snivelling wreck that Mr Marks has since then become.

    For the record, I do not agree with all that Mr Carson says. I regard myself as a man of the right, and am almost as much a conservative as a libertarian. This being said, I am impressed by Mr Carson’s work in general. I am persuaded by certain parts of it. At all times, I think him one of the most significant newish voices in the libertarian movement, and am proud that the Libertarian Alliance has republished so much of his work.

    The Libertarian movement is very broad. It has room for Roderick Long and Kevin Carson, and for Hans-Hermann Hoppe and Lew Rockwell and Tom Palmer. It has room for me. It may even have some room for Paul Marks – assuming his answers to the questions I set him are regarded as sufficiently honest.

  • Kevin Carson // 30 June, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    I normally refrain from engaging Mr. Marks directly, for fear of provoking another pathetic “O tempora! O mores!” emotional meltdown. But this simply cannot stand:

    “I hold that Mr Carson would also oppose unlimited liabilty private factory owners as well.

    “In short that the talk of ‘corporations’ and the talk of ‘patents’ is just a diversion tactic.

    “It would be easy to refute me – all Mr Carson would have to do is to write in support of the various private factory owners who were not limited liability operations.”

    This is indicative of sloppy thinking. As you should surely know, since it was the central topic of our exchange in the “Contract Feudalism” debate, I do not regard third party limited liability and patents as the only forms of statist privilege that benefit employers. But I’m quite happy to “defend” all those factory owners who did not take advantage of not only limited liability and patents, but of Enclosures, the Combination Laws and Laws of Settlement, and enforcement of land titles derived from feudal conquest.

    Now, I hold that Mr. Marks would support drug laws and other restrictions on economic freedom favored by the Conservative Party. But it would be easy for him to refute me–all Mr. Marks would have to do is write, clearly and unequivocally, that he opposes all drug and other vice laws as illegitimate restrictions on economic freedom, and defends an absolute individual right to ingest whatever substances he chooses and to buy and sell such substances in market transactions with other willing parties.

  • Kevin Carson // 30 June, 2009 at 8:02 pm

    P.S. Mr. Marks is fond of the obnoxious tactic of speculating on what I “would” advocate, and then challenging me to deny it. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. So either put up or shut up.

    The corner into which Mr. Marks has backed himself should demonstrate, yet again, that in a battle of wits he is unarmed.

  • Ian B // 30 June, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    The Conservative Party is by no stretch of the imagination a libertarian party.

    When we all get our heads around the idea that conservatism and libertarianism are entirely different things- as different as communism and conservatism- we may all start getting somewhere. Conservative parties on occasion may supply some liberal policies (generally in the matter of business, if generally a preference for corporatist rather than free market solutions), just as socialist parties may on occasion supply some liberal policies (generally in social or sexual matters, though generally to favour client groups). It is thus the case that, since we have only a choice of a conservative party and a socialist party, some persons of libertarian belief might join either one in the hope of some liberal advance.

    But conservative parties are not liberal parties, any more than the Liberal Party is, because conservatives are not liberals. So while it might be unwise for a libertarian to be a member of a conservative party, it is also at least equally unwise for a declared prominent libertarian to go around shouting that he is a conservative at every opportunity.

    There is no Quisling Right. The conservative right is not liberal/libertarian and has never pretended to be liberal/libertarian. It hasn’t betrayed anybody. It is what it is, which is conservative- that is, committed to a nineteenth century model of corporate philanthropic patronage.

    Libertarianism/liberalism is a distinct, radical philosophy. It is the least conservative philosophy there is. The man who has joined a Conservative Party in the hope of achieving some liberal progress is nowhere near as confused as the man who declares himself both libertarian and conservative, which is akin to declaring himself a christian buddhist.

  • Tim Starr // 30 June, 2009 at 9:57 pm

    Carson says:

    “I’m quite happy to “defend” all those factory owners who did not take advantage of not only limited liability and patents, but of Enclosures, the Combination Laws and Laws of Settlement, and enforcement of land titles derived from feudal conquest.”

    IOW, Mr. Carson’s not willing to defend _any_ employers that have ever existed, as it’s literally impossible to find any that have never benefitted from anything the State’s ever done.

    Nor, for that matter, is it possible to find any employees who’ve never benefitted from anything the State’s ever done (such as compulsory unionization under the Wagner Act, for instance), either. Similar absurd arguments are made for reverse-racism about whites having historically benefitted from such policies as segregation and Apartheid – policies they may very well have opposed and helped to abolish.

    The problem with this type of argument is that it may be deployed to reach whatever result one wishes. For instance, it had previously occurred to me that I could’ve made a Carsonesque argument in favor of the acts of Parliament authorizing the land takings needed to build the railroads: Since the existing pattern of land distribution was the result of statism, those acts of Parliament could arguably have been deregulatory in nature, correcting the prior monopolization of land for the benefit of all. However, I realized that such an argument is completely unfalsifiable, so I did not make it. Carson, however, makes exactly the same sort of unfalsifiable arguments in favor of the proletariat and against the bourgeoisie.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 30 June, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    Ian B – I will, some time this year, make a defence of conservative-libertarianism. Needless to say, my definition of conservatism may not be that of any actually existing conservative party.

    Tim Starr – Your point about the possibly deregulatory nature of railway purchase acts sounds a very good one. I’d forgotten that, when not cheering on your country’s armed forces, you can be a most incisive critic. You’ve put into words one of my own reservations about left libertarianism, which includes some of Rothbard – if only justly-acquired property is legitimate, no property is secure. If – as I accept – Tesco is a creature of state privilege, surely shoplifting from Tesco cannot be wrong.

    I will try to ignore Paul Marks – if only because he has nothing to say. But I would be interested in any exploration of the points raised by Tim.

  • Ian B // 30 June, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    I think the error with considering the railways to be creatures of state privelege due to compulsory purchases presumes that they could only have been built that way, and without that privelege no railways would exist. I would contend that in a free market, railways would be built through fair purchase of the land.

    Mining history for arguments about who got what how is a rats nest. We can certainly say that some people got a great deal by theft and violence, but it was a different world. That’s just how things were. We end up with trying to extract reparations from the Saxons.

    The libertarian approach, I would think, is that if we were to move to a libertarian, genuinely free society and abolish the privelege which currently exists then gradually the inequities would unravel towards a state where the starting advantages and disadvantages would be extinguished other than as things of interest to historians. People can make their fortunes these days without owning vast tracts of countryside, and the days of the captain of industry and his legion of effectively indentured serf-labourers are fast coming to an end- though that end is retarded by socialist and conservative attempts to maintain an economy based on “employment”.

    To return Tesco to the status of being mere greengrocers, as opposed to being partners in social governance or whatever, is all that is required.

  • Tim Starr // 30 June, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    Carson would be on stronger grounds arguing that only those able to influence the State are able to enjoy the benefits of a relative absence of State interference with their activities, rather than trying to blame everything wrong with the present order upon whatever State activity can be connected with it at some time in the past. Influencing the State is expensive, and thus reserved to those sufficiently rich, strong, numerous, and well-organized to do so.

    In my view, the transition from feudalism to modern capitalism was in large part due to the interstitial rise of industry and commerce, which then enriched the new commercial and industrial class enough to make them first able to defend themselves against State encroachment then able to use the State to their benefit, and the detriment of their opponents. For instance, I see the anti-slavery movement as consisting largely of those who made their livings by peaceful trade with others, using the State to put those who made their livings by conquest and exploitation of human chattel out of business, partly out of sincere humanitarian concern and partly for the purpose of preventing slave labor from competing with free labor.

    This process originated in the countries with the most interstitial “space,” namely the Dutch Republic and England, then spread elsewhere from there. In countries with little interstitial space, the old feudal order saw the benefits of modern capitalism and imported it more selectively, under greater centralized control, thus attempting to have the “best” of both worlds – modern industry and commerce, under the firm control of a traditionalist authoritarian regime. Perhaps the clearest example of this would be the Second Reich.

  • Paul Marks // 1 July, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    First of all I welcome Kevin Carson making my point for me.

    Yet again I offered him a chance to express moral support for private factory owners (or mine owners or farming estate owners or…..) who were NOT limited liability enterprises and did not profit from patent laws. And again he does not do so – even though I have (many times) suggested historical examples to him of people he could support.

    “There are many other statist privileges….”

    This is always the game (and it a game) that is going to be played. The bottom line is simple – private factory, and other such, owners (whether corporate or not) are always going to be oppsed by Kevin Carson – because that is his objective. He makes it quite obvious – and for that I am greatful.

    If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck – it is a duck (or at least is very likely to be a duck).

    That is why I say Kevin Carson is a Red. Because he uses arguments a Red would use for the objective (namely to undermine the moral right of private enterprise) a Red would use them for.

    That he does not call himself a Red and that he uses some of the language of libertarians use does not alter this situation.

    Sean Gabb.

    Dr Gabb brings up the fact that I called him a coward and a bully.

    This was done because, instead of replying to the specific points I had made (so many times) you instead quoted Conservative party rules and made threats against me – implying that you would report me to the Conservative party and also spread news of my evil opinions (some of which, such as supporting incest, of which I had never even heard) to “lots of people” who would be very interested to hear (no doubt local voters in Kettering).

    Making threats rather than replying to specific points is the mark of a coward and a bully.

    Therefore I called you a coward and a bully – because that is what you are.

    I could also have called you a “middle aged man” (like myself) it was descriptive. Although I fully admit it was not meant as a complement.

    In case you decide to act like an honourable man I will ask you about two points again:

    You stated that the prices of most goods and services sold by private companies were not a matter of the market – but were “administered” (i.e. dreamed up by some corporate manager on the basis of whim) instead.

    Do you really hold that opinion or is it just Kevin Cason nonsense?

    You also stated that there is “little competition” between companies.

    Again do you really hold that opinion or is it just Kevin Carson nonsense?

    Ian B.

    The Conservative Party does indeed not hold a libertarian ideology (or any ideology come to that).

    And I have often had disagreements with other party members for example on the membership of the European Union.

    Indeed I wrote that Britain should leave the European Union in a comment on the Conservative.home blog only the other day.

    Oh no – more stuff for Dr Sean Gabb to use to inform against me. Accept that being a sneak is rather pointless as I put my words on a Conservative website – so I guess they know about them without Sean Gabb being a clever informer.

    “No Paul I do not mean the Conservative party, which I agree has no fixed ideology, I mean conservatism and how hostile it is to libertarianism”. This may be a line of argument someone could use.

    Now there we may disagree.

    My opinions on political economy (and “social issues” come to that) are basically those of Edmund Burke.

    I was interested to find how much I agreed with him when I first read his works – and so studied him more, expecting (as with John Locke and others) to find great differences in due time.

    But I did not.

    Now was Edmund Burke a “conservative” or a “libertarian”?

    Surely if Edmund Burke is rejected as “unconservative” because of his libertarian opinions I am in good company if I am also rejected?

    Or perhaps “conservativism” (as a position in political philosophy) is not quite what people think it is.

    “You are going off on one of your flights of fancy Paul – how does this relate to Kevin Carson?”

    It is directly relevant – Kevin Carsonism (if I may use the term) is not compatible with Edmund Burke’s ideas at all.

    “Who cares?”

    Well it is also not compatible with even the anarchist Murry Rothbard either – for Rothbard put private property (including factories, mines, big farms and so on) at the very heart of his position.

    The private enterprises that Kevin Carson has dedicated his life to destroy.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 2 July, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Paul Marks – I did say I would try not to reply to you. However, I will. I have no intention of reporting you to the Conservative Party. If you misrepresented your opinions in order to become a Tory Councillor, that is a matter for your own private conscience. I was more interested in your credentials as a libertarian. Since you will not come out of the closet and endorse a number of almost trite libertarian positions – relegalisation of all drugs, of incest between consenting adults, and of the right to keep and bear arms for self-defence, and repeal of the obscene publications laws – I deny that you have the slightest moral right to sneer at the libertarian credentials of others. You could give a straight answer to the questions that Kevin Carson and I both put to you. Instead, you choose to waffle on about Edmund Burke – a man whom I much admire, and who also wrote clear English when he wanted to explain his views.

    My refusal to answer your direct questions is based on modesty. I do not regard myself as an expert on the workings of the corporate economy. I am inclined to believe that Mr Carson is right about the lack of market behaviour within and between large corporations. But I was only summarising his arguments. If you want to criticise them, you should try reading his book, or asking him directly – he is rather busy, but might be willing to point you to a longer summary of his work than I have provided.

    In general, I do not despise people who have never written anything at length of their own, but instead criticise the work of others. After all, you don’t need to be a cobbler to know that a shoe pinches. What I do find contemptible is someone who has never written anything at length or of value, but who attacks the work of others, without having read it, and in a tone of the most arrogant superiority.

    I resent being called a coward and a bully not because – as you might claim to be the case – I am stung by the truth, but because you are talking manifest nonsense. When have I ever hung back from defending the rights of holocaust revisionists, sado-masochistic homosexuals or the preachers of Islamic fundamentalism? Perhaps I was wrong to believe in their right to freedom of speech and association. But it was hardly cowardly. As for being a bully, when have I ever done other than tolerate the most vicious attacks on me?

    If you define cowardice as a refusal to enter into the details of an argument on which I am not an expert, and bullying as holding you up to ridicule, go ahead with your shirll accusations. Otherwise, I leave the matter to the judgement of others.

    By the way, you claim not to know that incest was ever legal in England. Between consenting adults, it was not a criminal offence until the Punishment of Incest Act 1908. I wrote about this twenty years ago, and have been raising eyebrows ever since. Oh – and I do believe in the right of consenting blood relatives to have sex with each other and at least to enter into civil partnerships if that is what they desire. If anyone must wipe the vomit off his monitor after reading this, tough! As a libertarian, I take very seriously the injunction to be clear at all times.

    Now, I think this is the end of my dealings with you, Mr Marks. As said, I am much more interested in the points made by Ian B against me. I will reply to them when my new novel is finished. I am also very interested in the points made by Tim Starr. He has identified what may be an important flaw in the mutualist/left libertarian argument. He does so with evidence and argument – not with spiteful and embittered innuendo. I might also say that, while I have had the occasional flame war with Tim over Iraq etc, he has never been shy about telling the world what he really thinks.

  • Richard // 2 July, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    “I think the issue of limited liability, as Carson addresses it, is a mistake. So long as one knows one is dealing with a ll corp., then caveat emptor surely applies. ”

    I believe Kevin actually says in the book that he is sympathetic to the idea that limited liability and even corporate personhood could arise on a free market without government intervention or support. However, without government support the process would be less simple and effective.

  • Kevin Carson // 2 July, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    Tim: My point was less that private employers deserved some blanket condemnation than to suggest the sloppiness of Mr. Marks’ blanket “defense” of them. I do believe that there are net beneficiaries and net victims of state-enabled exploitation, and that small and medium-sized firms in the competitive sector are probably often net victims of the monopoly sector (considering the long hours many small business owners work, the “profits” on the enterprise are probably equivalent to a middling hourly wage).

    Re railroad land grants, I would point out that they involved the state preempting vacant land and then *preferentially* giving it to railroad promoters.

    The problem is exacerbated, first, by the fact that the grants were not simply of the actual rights of way necessary to build the railroads, but of wide tracts of land on either side which were intended as a source of railroad finance via real estate sales. From a Rothbardian perspective, this involved an impermissible state engrossment of vacant and unimproved land, and subsequent donation to favored clients who were then able to charge tribute from the rightful owners (i.e. those who first improved it). And this latter benefit, the financial returns from the sale of lands outside the right of way (not to mention direct state grants of money), was almost certainly necessary for railroads to be built at all, given the enormous capital outlays required to build them.

    Second, the railroads having been built with the help of these land grants and all the rest of it, the railroads immediately turned around and took advantage of their “turtle on a fencepost” position to engage in price discrimination with rebates. It’s much like the drug companies that get taxpayer R&D financing for half or more of the cost of developing new drugs, and then turn around and charge patent monopoly prices.

    Re Mr. Marks’ rambling claims that I have “shown my true colors,” it’s possible to turn the argument around on him. He regards the fact that most large corporate enterprises fall afoul of my free market analysis as evidence that I’m a closet “Red.” But the very fact that he treats as a shibboleth the percentage of private enterprises under actually existing capitalism that are considered be statist allies, indicates that he views free market principles as something to be applied in the ideological defense of the dominant economic interests under actually existing capitalism. That he yearns for an age when most libertarians didn’t believe in state capitalism or that most large corporations were part of a corporate-state nexus, but sat around over brandy and cigars lamenting the proliferation of welfare moms and commiserating with big business as an “oppressed minority,” speaks volumes about him. No doubt if he’d been around a thousand or two thousand years ago he’d have been in the employ of the feudal nobility defending their Lockean “property rights” to the rents from a million souls on their land, or of some Roman senator defending his slave-worked latifundium as “free enterprise,” and treating anyone who regarded a majority of feudal landlords or latifundists as illegitimate in free market terms as a “Red.” Mr. Marks is not a principled free market advocate, but an ideological shill for the privileged–and not even a very good one.

  • Tim Starr // 2 July, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    Yes, many of the Federally-subsidized late 19th-century railroads in America behaved badly, as Carson describes. However, Henry Hill’s Great Northern Railroad was not subsidized, and did not behave badly.

    Furthermore, land grants were made to railroads in America because they were made through undeveloped land, and it was known that development would be necessary in order for the railroads to be profitable. However, there were no such Federal land grants prior to the American civil war, but there were many profitable railroads in America before the civil war (some of which enjoyed subsidies from the states, but some did not). Furthermore, canals and railways in Britain usually did not get land grants as they were not run through unowned land. Rather, they had forced purchase laws (rather like our eminent domain laws) which didn’t necessarily get the builders access to public funds but merely neutralized holdouts. For instance, the Bridgewater Canal built this way; one of the main holdouts was a large landowner and member of the nobility who didn’t want the canal disrupting his hunting grounds – surely just the sort of privileged member of the existing order you don’t wish to defend. (The Bridgewater canal was never nationalized, and remains privately-owned to this day.)

    Returning to the American railroads, it makes no more sense to say that the railroads unjustly acquired wealth from those who first developed the land along their routes than it does to say that those developers unfairly acquired wealth from the railroads whose transport made those lands more profitable for development in the first place. Your conclusion is based upon the labor theory of property-acquisition, which is rather self-evidently absurd upon examination, no matter who supported it.

    Additionally, the American federally-subsidized railroads were often failures, thus disproving your claim that subsidized projects will always outcompete un-subsidized ones.

  • Kevin Carson // 2 July, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    But I haven’t argued that no railroads would have existed absent state subsidies–only that there wouldn’t have been a national system of trunk lines on anywhere near the scale or volume that came about with state subsidies. Lewis Mumford’s description of the early railroads as primarily “eotechnic” systems linking local economies together is relevant, I think.

    I’m familiar with arguments made on behalf of Hill and the Great Northern; he may have done it without money subsidies, but I doubt he did it without grants of rights-of-way and other land grants.

    Re the labor standard for acquiring unowned property, that’s a matter of first principle on which we must simply agree to disagree. But I can’t see any moral justification for fencing off unused and undeveloped land and regulating access to it, any more than there’s a moral justification for a Pope allocating “property” in the Western hemisphere to Spain and Portugal by drawing a line across the map.

  • Tim Starr // 2 July, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    Carson: You don’t seem to be all that familiar with the Great Northern Railway, as your take on it is contrary to the facts. It essentially was a large-scale trunk line for the entire northern midwest and west of the USA, covering 1,700 miles, from St. Pail to Seattle, with many branches.

    Moreover, while Hill started by taking over a subsidized railroad which had failed, he eschewed all subsidies, even land grants, ever after.

    As for marking off unowned land and preventing its use, I’m not sure what you would recognize as a moral justification for that. The main reason why someone would do that is that they believe the land would be more valuable unused than used, perhaps because it would be more valuable in the future, or because they’re simply not ready to start using it.

    It’s also unclear what you count as “use.” My family owns some forest land which we’re not currently using (we hope to be able to afford to build a vacation home on it someday), and some other forest land which we don’t use except for hunting, fishing, and just enough logging to pay for the property taxes. However, we’d be well within our rights to forcibly evict any squatters who tried to start farming it.

  • Kevin Carson // 3 July, 2009 at 3:23 am

    So it seems the existence of a long-distance trunk line was indeed a legacy benefit of land grants.

    I can’t see a moral justification for recognizing the boundary markers set by someone who fences off land with no intention of using it in the near future, when the supply of land is finite.

    You’re entirely correct to raise the questions of how much admixture of labor is required for land appropriation, and what level of use defines ownership, with labor appropriation. A considerable amount of convention is involved. But that doesn’t mean it’s entirely arbitrary. Two considerations come into play, in particular, in settling the practical questions. The first is Rothbard’s “relevant technological unit,” i.e. the amount of land required for a particular purpose given the predominant methods in use at the time; the other is Per Bylund’s idea that the same land can be homesteaded for particular purposes by different people.

  • Paul Marks // 3 July, 2009 at 9:24 am

    My specific questions have not been answered.

    I will repeat them.

    The claim was made that most prices for the goods and services sold by private companies are not the result of the market (i.e. the civil interactions of buyers and sellers), but are “administered” (i.e. dreamed up by evil corporate managers).

    Is this really the opinion of Sean Gabb – or is it just Kevin Carson nonsense?

    And the claim has been made that there is “little competition” generally between companies.

    Is this really the opinion of Sean Gabb – or is it just Kevin Carson nonsense?

    Instead there are efforts to change the subject to “incest” (and other stuff). I have often wondered why Sean Gabb presents pro freedom ideas (although I really never have come upon the incest stuff before – perhaps I should have read his writings rather than just listened to him in conversation or on the radio) is a way that hardly anyone could support them.

    I am not thinking of sex stuff (and so on). I am thinking of things like traffic – for example, instead of saying “the rules governing how a road is used should be up to owner of the road”, Dr Gabb is more likely to say something like – someone should be allowed to use drugs, get behind the wheel of a car and drive it up the wrong side of the road at 100 miles per hour.

    Presented like that no one (who was not barking mad) could support liberty.

    Perhaps it is a David Hume style love of using language to “prove” the absurd . For example that there was no such thing as the “I” – that human beings were not “beings” at all, that they were not beings/agents, that human agency/free will does not exist, i.e. that a person has no more moral importance than a clock work mouse and to talk of the freedom of a person (or rather the flesh robots who are falsely called persons – there being no subject/ object distinction) makes no more sense than to talk of the freedom of a clockwork mouse – and has, therefore, no moral importance.

    But David Hume was a philosopher – most likely (I hope) seeking to wake up sleepy heards by challenging what they just assumed to be true, but had never thought about deeply. David Hume was not really a political activist – I am not saying he should have been of course.

    For a political activist to present the case for greater liberty in a way that can only lead to people thinking that liberty is absurd (and worse), makes no sense to me. And it has never made sense to me – my opinion of this sort of thing was no different at the age of 15 than it is at the age of 43 (44 next week).

    As for slavery – I have written on this suject many times over the years. I have always been opposed to it (alth0ugh I can not claim to have thought up any legal arguments that were not well known to Salmon P. Chase – or even to the Roman lawyers who admitted that slavery was against what the called the “natural law” although they, tragically, tried to justify enforcing it on the grounds that it was allowed by “the law of all nations” so Rome would be at a disadvantage if it did not enforce the practice).

    On Kevin Carson:

    “There are many other statist privileges” is, in this case, a way of saying “I can always find an excuse to do what I want to do anyway”, namely to plunder private property.

    No matter what the time and place in history large scale private enterprise would always be opposed by Kevin Carson – I am not getting that “off the top of my head” but from his repeated refusal to take any of the opportunities I have give him (over years) to support large scale private enterprise.

    So the stuff about limited libility (the basis of churches, secular societies, charities, fraternities, cooperatives and so on, as well as limited companies, do not forget) and the stuff about patents, and the stuff about land is just a series of excuses – and an intelligent man like Kevin Carson will always be able to find some excuse or other for what he wants to do.

    David Hume may not have been making a dogmatic case (as his followers assume, on the other hand I hope that David Hume was just trying to make people think more deeply about their motivations by shocking them, not a tactic I like but one that could be argued for) when he claimed that “reason is the slave of the passions” (i.e. that people just use their reason to find reasons to support or do what they want to support or do anyway), but in the case of Kevin Carson, Hume has a point.

    The passion is opposition to large scale private property (in whatever time and place) and the “reason” is just a series of excuses (this time 600 pages long it seems) for plunder.

  • Paul Marks // 3 July, 2009 at 9:50 am

    In case anyone thinks I am obsessed with economics and history (for which, I confess, I sometimes give evidence that I might be) to the exclusion of the philosophical foundations of liberty.

    The philosophical foundation for supporting liberty is that human beings are just that. “Beings” – agents, that we can choose – that we can make a choice between good and evil.

    It is not the case for liberty that the choice is easy, or that there are no genetic and environmental pressures upon us. Or even that we will always choose well (I know from my own sins that this is not the case).

    The case for liberty (indeed that liberty exists at all) is that we can choose – that we are fundementally different from clock work mice (or from trees or lakes, or mountains, ……) that we are beings (sentient). In short, human.

    And that it is, therefore, wrong (for example) to imprison us if we have committed no crime – whereas it is not wrong to imprison a clock work mouse.

    “Is from an ought” – yes, but I have no problem with that.

    I do not regard morality (including justice – i.e. the nonaggression princple of non violating the bodies and goods of others) as a matter for long “argument” or “justification”.

    If someone says that it is morally good to rape, murder or plunder others they are just wrong (period). Of course they should be allowed to say such things – but if they try and DO them they should be punished.

    Common Sense (from Thomas Reid, and before, onwards) or the Oxford realism of such people as Harold Prichard and Sir William David Ross.

    Although this does not mean that I do not also have great respect for the Aristotelian tradition.

    Critics of all the above fall, I suspect, into two groups.

    One, of whom David Hume is chief, want to shock us into thinking deeply about things that we take for granted (the existance of good and evil, the existance of the material universe, and even our own existance as reasoning agents). Such people mean no harm – quite the contrary.

    But there is another group who really do seek to undermine belief in basic metaphysical principles (and I must stress by “metaphysical” I do not mean “supernatural” – an athiest can be a just and honourable person). The Logical Positivists are a good example of this latter (vile) group of people.

    See C.E.M Joad’s “A Critique of Logical Positivism” (London, Victor Gollancz, 1950) for a critical account of their doctrines.

  • Paul Marks // 3 July, 2009 at 10:09 am

    In response to Sean Gabb point about me “misrepresenting” my opinions. I have never done so to anyone.

    For example, (as I have already stated) I have always been open about my belief that Britain should leave the European Union. And I am fully aware that this is not the policy of the Conservative party- it is my (and others) task to try and convice people to make it the policy of the Conservative party in the future.

    “But what about domestic policy” – for example I have long been very vocal in saying government spending was out of control. And I was saying (and writing) this at the time it was Conservative party policy to match the planned spending increases of the Labour government.

    Far from misreprersenting my opinion – I stated it as clearly as I could (“with your use of language that would not be very clear” – might be Dr Gabb’s reply to that) very many times indeed.

    In fact I was called a “bore” on the subject. Yet that policy has now changed – although I am not claiming that my banging on about the issue had anything to do with the change of policy (the change in policy was caused by the financial crises).

    Therefore I think it is time for Dr Gabb to formally apologize to me for claiming that I hid dissent from Conservative party policy – when in fact, I was very open about it (see above).

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 3 July, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Mr Marks – Be glad you are not one of my students. Hand in an essay filled with that rambling stuff about David Hume and Aristotle, and you’d get it straight back covered in red ink. It makes no relevant point. It seems intended to hide feeble powers of analysis behind a show of learning.

    Your third post about your opinions would disgrace a teenage Toryboy. I never asked you about the European Union or government spending. Let me ask again:

    Do you believe in the relegalisation of all recreational drugs?

    Do you believe in the repeal of the obscene publication laws?

    Do you believe in the relegalisation of incest between consenting adults?

    Do you believe in the repeal of every Firearms Act made since 1920?

    There is no shame in answering “no” to any of these questions. However, your refusal to give a straight answer suggests either that you do not agree with fairly mainstream libertarian positions, or that you are keeping quiet for the sake of your relationship with the Conservative Party. In either case, you have no right to judge the libertarian credentials of anyone else.

    You could win this argument very easily. All you need do is copy and paste the above questions into your next comment. You then follow each with a single word answer. If you answer “yes” to all of them, you establish that you do have a moral right to judge other libertarians, and you prove that you are not hiding your real opinions from the Conservative Party. If you answer “no” to any of them, you do not establish your moral right to judge other libertarians, but you still prove that you are not hiding your real opinions from the Conservative Party.

    Come on, let’s have some straight answers.

  • Tim Starr // 3 July, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    Carson: No, “a long-distance trunk line” was _not_ “a legacy benefit of land grants.” Prior to Hill, the railroads he took over (many of whose lines he had to scrap entirely due to their shoddy construction and inefficient routes) did not cross the Continental Divide. He extended it through the Rockies, and even integrated his operations with an overseas shipping operation to export his customers’ goods.

    As for land use:

    1) The folks at seasteading.org disagree that land is finite, and are figuring out how to produce more of it. The UAE’s Palm Island is an already-existing example of this in practice (although the UAE is much farther from libertopia than it’s often made out to be).

    2) Population density in the Americas, Africa, and Australasia is quite low, making for no significiant effect of land finitude upon anyone’s income opportunities. Indeed, some of the most prosperous places on earth have much higher population density, such as Japan, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, etc.

    3) Many land uses are simply incompatible. To the extent that they are compatible, a single owner has economic incentives to rent out their land to others who may wish to use them for compatible purposes. This is already done, as by farmers who allow hunters to hunt in their fields, or who allow wind turbines to be set up among their crops.

    4) Nature preserves are one obvious reason to avoid land “use” in the near term. Lumber companies typically allow their tree farms to re-grow for decades prior to harvesting them again. Meanwhile, they aren’t “using” that land in the sense of turning it into present production.

    4) Witholding land from present use is a form of saving. Your preference is to sacrifice the assets of those who save for the present consumption of those who do not wish to save. There is no principled reason to restrict this to the ownership of natural resources alone. Why not extend it to all capital? Is it not also finite? Why not extend it to labor? After all, leisure time is merely “unused labor,” and one of the main arguments for slavery was that slaves would simply waste away their lives if not forced to produce. Your distinction between natural resource ownership and all other ownership is arbitrary, and your principle logically implies the redistribution of resources from saving to consumption.

  • Kevin Carson // 4 July, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Thanks for the information concerning the Great Northern, Tim. But even stipulating that an individual could do it that way, I still strongly suspect that Hill was an outlier and there would have been a lot fewer and lower capacity trunklines if their creation had depended on such individuals without government subsidies.

    As for the creation of land, I’ve seen arguments before that seasteading projects, multi-story buildings, etc., amount to the production of new land. But I think Henry George’s classical use of terminology was correct. The land, strictly speaking, is original spatial locations which are provided gratis by nature. These sites vary in how much labor and capital must be applied to make them usable; and the marginal cost in labor and capital required for making land usable is the basis of the law of Ricardian rent. The marginal cost of the “new land” on the hundredth floor of a skyscraper is a lot higher than the original marginal cost of the surface area on which the structure was built, and the rent on it will accordingly be higher; and it becomes profitable to apply capital to land in this way to make it usable only when land within the margin has already been occupied.

  • Paul Marks // 5 July, 2009 at 6:39 am

    Dr Gabb – calling what I say “rambleing” does not refute it.

    Actually I doubt that you are pro liberty even in the most basic sense of believing that it is even possible. In short I doubt that you believe human beings are agents – i.e. that they are “beings” at all.

    However, I accept that you might be a follower of David Hume in the way I mentioned above – i.e. trying to “wake up sleepy heads” by challenging what people take for granted (even our very existance as reasoning agents) rather than actually trying to undermine humanity.

    By the way why should I give you “straight” replies – when you have not given them to the questions I ASKED FIRST.

    But if you insist on talking about sex matters – O.K.

    I have opposed party policy on some of the sex agenda.

    For example, some years ago (I was not a councillor at the time) the then leader of the Conservative group on the Council was reading out some Central Office stuff about how we had to “promote alternative lifestyles”.

    I argued that it should not be our policy to use taxpayers money to promote homosexual acts – I was told (and still am) that this was old fashioned “Clause 28″ thinking on my part.

    However, I still hold this opinion. Report me if you so wish to do so – I think you will find the Conservative party already know.

    As for sex matters generally – I do not wish to get into position that Mary Whitehouse found herself in. The very fact that I have to now say “of course I do not share her opinions” shows what an unpleasent experience she had.

    Savage mockery and abuse from the entire establishement (year after year) – including even radio show named in mockery of her (“The Mary Whitehouse Experience”) that Mrs Whitehouse was forced to pay for via the television tax.

    Still I have an apology to make.

    I have often thought you a coward – “going with the flow” in supporting various sex stuff in the hopes of profiting from your support (getting invited on radio shows and so on – whereas you would not be so invited to speak against the Bank of England or anything that I happen to be interested in).

    “Sex sells – and it makes him seem radical to the (degenerate) establishement, so Sean concentrates on it”.

    That was my opinion – but it no longer is.

    Mr Clarke told me some things yesterday that, I have to admit, required real courage on your part.

    So I withdraw (and apologize for) my claim in previous comments that you are a coward.

    As for my own opinions of “sex, drugs and rock and roll” I have said (so many times) that there was less of it about before the government started to take an interest, and that I support the view of Gladstone and others that it is not from the state that we should expect moral improvement.

    Although, I must confess, I had some desire for a law against pop music on a trip to Stamford yesterday – whereever I went there was the sound of it and the sight of its supporters. Young people “pretending to be orcs” as a friend I was with put it.

    Of course that is not a serious opinion of mine (it was an feeling – but it did give me an insight in to how people could have other feelings).

  • Paul Marks // 5 July, 2009 at 6:46 am

    As for Kevin Carson:

    The mistake is still being made – I do not attack anyone for making the mistake (I made it myself for years), but it is a mistake.

    Challenging him over the Great Northern of J.J. Hill (or over anything) is a total waste of time.

    It as pointless as to argue about the Norman Conquest (pointing out that hardly any free holds go back to the Norma Conquest now) or over Iceland or over anything else.

    The basic mistake (which I repeat I made for a long time myself) is to think that some special thing (be it limited liabilty or whatever) makes Mr Carson hostile to large scale private property – and to concentrate on this special thing.

    However, the hostility to large scale private property is not based on some special thing – or even on a group of special things.

  • Paul Marks // 5 July, 2009 at 6:50 am

    Still I repeat that the two basic claims mentioned in the review are false.

    It is not the case that most prices charged for goods and services by private companes are not a market matter but are simply dreamed up by evil corporates “administered prices”.

    There are prices that are “administered” – but these are a small minority of prices and the administers are the government.

    Nor is it the case there is “little competition” in the general economy between companies.

    Not only is this a false claim – it is an utterly absurd claim.

    And it is claim that plays (and is meant to play) into the hands of the left.

  • Kevin Carson // 5 July, 2009 at 7:03 am

    The mistake you made, Mr. Marks, was to repeatedly speculate on my motives and attempt to catechise me on my beliefs, while being too damn thick-headed to anticipate that your tactics might be turned around on you. I’ve given straight answers on this thread, while you’ve weaseled around and managed to conceal less meaning in more verbiage than Sarah Palin.

    If you’re going to behave as a “bully and a coward,” to use your own apt phrase, you ought to be able to think a couple of moves ahead. But after demanding an answer to your question about my political views, you have responded to Sean’s point-blank questions like a deer in the headlights, hemming and hawing and evading. Still no straight answer–just evasion and defensiveness concealed behind a screen of feigned moral outrage.

    I repeat, put up or shut up.

    For months and months, you have speculated on what my opinions on this or that thing would be, in the tones of a prosecutor, and demanded that I prove you wrong. Now the tables are turned, and you are stammering worse than Ralph Kramden as “Chef of the Future.”

    If you will not give a straight answer regarding your views on drugs, your best move is to slink away and hope we’ll eventually forget what a despicable, cowardly little worm you are.

  • Paul Marks // 6 July, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Kevin Carson – why should I give a “straight reply” to questions framed in such a way that such a “straight reply” (WHICH EVER WAY I JUMPED) could only cause me harm. “Giving ammunition to the ememy” does not profit me. Particularly as the questions I asked (which I asked FIRST) never got a “straight reply”.

    I am interested in the things that I am interested in – I know perfectly well the “Do not think of an elephant” book style effort of changing the subject (or the “frame of reference”) to stuff other people are interested in. And I see no reason to play into that trap.

    Also what have these questions that I am asked got to do with your efforts to undermine support for large scale private property?

    I am hardly an “apologist for the status que” as I repeatedly argue for the radical reduction in the size of government (I am even against the Bank of England – which makes me even against the status que that was established in the 1690’s).

    As for corporations – I have repeatedly said that I am against Captial Gains Tax and Inheritance Tax, and the other things that have gradually taken the ownership of corporations away from individuals towards (instead) institutional investors. Remember even when I was born most shares were owned by private individuals – now it is only a small fraction.

    I am also against all the statutes and regulations in the United States that have undermined share owner power and boosted that of corporate managers.

    I would abolish all these anti share owner regulations tomorrow (indeed today).

    But you are not really interested in the above. It is hardly “speculation about your motives” to say that whatever the time and place you would be against large scale private property.

    It is not “speculation” because you have made it obvious (time and time again).

    Why bother to write about you at all – is it not “shrill”?

    Actually I would not write about you – even if you called yourself a libertarian (after all you would not be the first far leftist to do so).

    What attracted my attention was how your stuff was pushed at a Libertarian Alliance conference (years ago) and is still being pushed.

    Actually I came upon it again at the Samizdata blog.

    I do not ask you to “shut up” – but I do ask you and your friends to keep out of my way. I do not have a big role (for example comparing the number of people I reach to the number of people someone like Glenn Beck reaches is like comparing a mountain to a molehill – and I am not the mountain), but I do what I can to oppose the left.

    If someone called a “libertarian” wishes to help in the fight against out of control government, good (the side I am on needs all the help we can get) but if not, they can stay out of the way and do not make things even more difficult.

    Presenting the case for greater liberty in a way that hardly anyone could support it (indeed in a way that seems designed to make people think the case is barking mad) is not helpful – quite the contrary.

    But you do not even do that (that is what certain other people do – with, for example, the stuff about allowing people to use drugs and drive on the wrong side of the road at 100 miles per hour).

    What you do is even worse – you attack the moral basis of large scale private property whilst (at the same time) waving the flag of “libertarianism”.

    This “false flagism” may have a long history (it was a tactic of the old Russian security service and it was a tatic taken over by the Soviets – see “The Trust” of the 1920s). But that does not mean I have to like it – or that my calling it what it is, can be correctly described as “shrill”.

    By the way if the Sean Gabb really is interested in making the public more (as opposed to less) supportive of the case against interventionism what has he done to promote such books as Thomas Sowell’s (non Austrian School) “Housing: Boom and Bust” or Thomas Woods’ (Austrian School) “Meltdown”?

    These are the two works that most directly deal with the current crises.

    They are the most “imporant” pro liberty books of this time. And Sean Gabb has many contacts that I do not – he could do some good. Do something useful – to help the general public understand that the current crises is not caused by “capitalism” and that higher government spending (and so on) is going to make things worse, not better.

    Instead we get the promotion of your book.

  • William Cobbett // 6 July, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    The reason why Libertarianism is such a joke.

    Legalize incest?

    Are you people for real, or is this some kind of elaborate group joke?

  • Ian B // 6 July, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    Hmm. Not so long ago, one might imagine somebody saying,

    “legalise sodomy?

    Are you people for real, or is this some kind of elaborate group joke?”

  • Paul Marks // 6 July, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    You are right Ian B.

    In fact Edmund Burke got into a lot of trouble just suggesting some mitigations in the punishments for sodomy. Although the only time I have been directly involved in legal disputes on this matter is when I stated my opinion that the Supreme Court of the United States had no right to strike down the Texas sodomy statute.

    I still believe that the Supreme Court had no such right – although I would have voted to repeal the Statute if I had been a member of the Texas leglislature.

    I hope that is a “straight” enough reply for people. Although, most likely, they will say I am contradicting myself.

    The fact that I am uninterested by a lot of this stuff does not mean that other people should not be interested in these areas of law.

    My reason for getting interested in politics (as a boy) was the threat I believed there was to large scale property (and thus to civilization), in short “I hated Kevin Carson before he was born” (assuming he is younger than I am) or “it is nothing personal”.

    Other people have other reasons for getting interested in politics – other things that interest them.

    If I was not so tunnel visioned I might have more respect for the interests of others. Perhaps if the great threat (the threat of statism that has already taken over about half the entire economy in government spending and distorts the rest with credit money and regulations) went away I would redirect my attentions (although, I admit, it is more likely, that I would lose interest in politics).

    As it is my objectives are to stand for the side that holds that human beings are individual moral agents (i.e. that we can choose between good and evil) and that statism undermines respect for this defining feature of our humanity. And (related) to play my small (very small) part in resisting state intervention.

    Now it could be that if statism did not exist (or was say 10% of the economy rather than about 50%) lots of small business enterprises would replace (over time) large business enterprises.

    I do not know. It is not a question that particularly interests me.

    What matters to me is to drive back statism – and let human beings work and trade as they can. What the results of that would be I leave to others.

    Anyway, my objective is to play what part I can in maximising the number of people who support the side of greater liberty. And I dislike those who word things in such a way that I think will minimise the number of people who support the side of greater liberty.

    For example, instead of saying “the rules of using a road would be best decided by the owner of the road” saying “people should be allowed to take drugs and drive down the side of the road at 100 miles per hour”.

    Although I fully accept that what the above really means is “I dislike people who do not word things the way I want them to be worded” which is unjust of me.

  • Kevin Carson // 6 July, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    It’s funny, Mr. Marks, that you now claim I never gave you a straight answer, because when I responded to your questions earlier you thanked me for “making your points for you.” The only logical interpretation of that latter phrase is that you regarded my answer as giving you the rope you needed to hang me, or demonstrating myself to be “guilty as charged.” I believe I made it clear that I would not “defend” factory owners as such, but would defend those who could not be found to be net beneficiaries of statist privilege. It may or may not have been the answer you desired, but it was a straight answer and my genuine opinion.

    Once again, here’s the situation: You made personal insinuations to the effect that I was concealing my real agenda, and challenged me to prove you wrong by answering your questions. Sean turned the tables on you, and apparently you were too dim-witted to anticipate the possibility. Even after I answered your question, you continued to hem and haw and dance around the issue with lame excuses about “handing your enemies ammunition”–even though that’s what you demanded of me.

    I would also mention that the “bullying” tactic Sean used against you, challenging you to answer a question in response to your own demand, might have been borrowed from Jesus Christ. “Answer me this, and I will tell you by what right I do these things.”

    I do give you credit for finally admitting you’d have voted to repeal the sodomy statute in Texas, which is the first thing approaching a straight answer you’ve given. Now all you have to do is answer, yes or no, whether you’d support the repeal of drug laws in the UK, and we can call you an honest man.

    As for “attack[ing] the moral basis of large scale private property whilst (at the same time) waving the flag of ‘libertarianism’,” here’s a quote from that notorious false flag operator Ludwig von Mises:

    Nowhere and at no time has the large scale ownership of land come into being through the working of economic forces in the market. It is the result of military and political effort. Founded by violence, it has been upheld by violence and by that alone. As soon as the latifundia are drawn into the sphere of market transactions they begin to crumble, until at last they disappear completely. Neither at their formation nor in their maintenance have economic causes operated. The great landed fortunes did not arise through the economic superiority of large scale ownership, but through violent annexation outside the area of trade. “And they covet the fields” complains the prophet Micah, “and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away.” Thus comes into existence the property of those who, in the words of Isaiah, “join house to house . . . lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth”.

    Come to think of it, it seems Micah and Isaiah were false flag operators as well.

    Once again, you demonstrate that your goal is to defend, not libertarian principles as such, but to defend “large scale private property” without regard to questions of justice in acquisition, and to bend and distort free market principles so as to justify the owners of actually existing concentrations of “large scale private property” in the service of your landed paymasters.

    Rather than defending free market principles for their own sake, whether established interests stand or fall in the face of free market analysis in a given case, you defend established interests for their own sake and do violence to free market principles to make your favored interests come out on top. You clearly care nothing for the free market as such, but only for defending established property interests by hook or by crook. You’d defend the “large scale private property” of King David against Uriah the Hittite, and that of Ahab against Naboth.

    It is you, in other words, who are the false flag operator.

  • Tim Starr // 6 July, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    Carson:

    1) Evidently von Mises never heard of the King Ranch, of Texas – a large-scale land holding that was acquired by strictly economic activity.

    2) Discovery and security costs for initial land acquisition can often be quite high. These costs are often not taken into account by those making your sort of arguments against large-scale land ownership. In cases of landfill, swamp drainage, or offshore platforms, the marginal cost of the first floor may very well be a great deal higher than the marginal cost of additional floors/stories.

    3) Since there are such things as just wars, for Mises to say that all large-scale land ownership resulted from violence is not to say that violence was necessarily unjust.

    Taking points 2 and 3 above into account, it would follow naturally that land whose discovery and security required a high concentration of capital and labor to acquire would also tend to be owned on a large scale, at least initially.

  • Víctor L. // 7 July, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    Gabb, I just want to know what is your view on worker cooperatives and self-managed enterprises, and its treatment by Kevin Carson.

  • Kevin Carson // 7 July, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    King Ranch, according to Wikipedia, is not a single contiguous tract of land, so I’m not sure it would meet Mises’ criteria. And the article isn’t clear on how the land was acquired; given our disagreement over what is a legitimate means of acquiring unowned land, I’m also not sure your criteria for “economic” acquisition are compatible with mine. The article is unclear, in particular, on the history of the land before King acquired it from the heirs of Juan Mendiola, the role of Spanish and Mexican land grants in the latter’s ownership, whether the land might have been worked for Mendiola by people who would have been considered the legitimate homesteaders by Rothbardian labor homesteading criteria, the possible presence of Indians whose tribal tenure rights were ignored by land grants, and so forth.

    Your costs of discovery and development of “free land” fall under the headings, in Ricardian-Georgist terms, of capital and labor. The greater the initial costs of making a surface level location usable, the less favorably situated/less fertile it is for the purposes of the Ricardian law of differential rent.

    I think we’ve established in the past that there’s an unbrigeable gap between your ideas of just war and mine. And in what I would regard as a legitimate war of territorial self-defense, I’m guessing I would regard it as far less likely than you do that large tracts of new territory would be acquired. And the passage of (say) former Spanish crown lands and Mexican federal lands into the U.S. public domain, and the latter’s subsequent regulation of homesteading, is certainly problematic for me.

  • Ian B // 7 July, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    I think we’ve established in the past that there’s an unbrigeable gap between your ideas of just war and mine.

    Then you need to go deeper and debate the axioms upon which those ideas are based.

    If you believe there’s an objective Truth out there that can be discerned, a search down the decision tree until the source of disagreement will resolve the disagreement. If you don’t believe there’s an objective Truth out there, there’s no point arguing nor writing books, since any point of view you promote is entirely arbitrary. You may as well declare that all the land in the world belongs to Mr Reginald Posner of 74 Gasworks Street Swindon, since this would be as true as anything else.

    Economics purports to make true statements about the world. If this is the case, any disagreements can be resolved. If it isn’t true, then you’re wasting your time. Go and do some gardening or watch a movie or something.

  • Kevin Carson // 7 July, 2009 at 8:08 pm

    The problem is, Ian, there’s a lot of “Objective Truth” out there, and a limited amount of time, and allowing the agenda for which ones to investigate to be set by questions raised by other people would turn polemical writing for blog comment threads and email lists into a full-time job. I really don’t want this thread to turn into a Vietnam-style quagmire where Tim and I are still engaged in a dick-waving contest two hundred posts from now, both obsessively seeking the last word.

  • Tim Starr // 7 July, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    Carson:

    1) Mises’ quote says nothing about large landholdings being contiguous, and many large feudal landholdings were discontiguous. Thus, this criteria is an irrelevancy introduced by you to dismiss contrary evidence. The King Ranch was purchased entirely on the free market, regardless of who had previously owned it or how it had been acquired.

    2) Your speculative title-search into who might’ve previously had some just claim upon the land, either Indians or hispanics, is just the sort of attempt to de-legitimize all property rights that I have been criticizing all along. There is not a single land title in the world that is pure by your standard, thus no obligation for anyone to respect anyone else’s property rights. In all likelihood, any Indians who lived on that land were almost entirely wiped out by European epidemic disease, like 90% of the pre-Columbian population of the Americas (and if they were anything like the Apaches, one of their main activities was aggressive war upon other tribes for profit), and the King family hired an entire village of hispanics to work their land; presumably they would hired any pre-existing inhabitants of the land.

    3) Land that cannot be secured is worthless; land that cannot be discovered or reached is worthless. Land rent is a function of these investments of labor and capital.

    4) I’ve no idea what notion of just war you adhere to, but seriously doubt that it has ever been practiced by anyone in the real world, much less any prior inhabitants of the King Ranch. Nevertheless, if you admit that there can be such a thing as just war, then you must admit the possibility of just acquition of territory by violent means.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 7 July, 2009 at 8:55 pm

    Victor L – I think the Kevin Carson view of worker cooperatives is that they would be the normal form of joint extended enterprise in a free society. I think there would still be much more room for nearly conventional employer-employee relationships. One of the functions of a legitimate entrepreneur is to look for market opportunities, and to risk money on organising land, labour and capital for a return that may be some way off. There is no reason why cooperatives shouldn’t also be just as enterprising. But I believe in addition that there are many people who would rather take orders in return for a safe monthly pay cheque.

    This being so, cooperatives might not be the dominant form of enterprise. However, I certainly have no objection to them. I wrote a pamphlet against them for the Conservative Party back in 1983. I no longer have a copy, but my argument was based on the assumption that cooperatives would be run by Trotskyites as if they were a permanent students union meeting, would be a permanent drain on the tazpayers, and would form part of the Labour Party’s client base. I think this was the case with some of the coooperatives set up in the 1970s.

    In a free society, though, I rather hope there would be a vast network of syndicalist utopias and other experiments in worker control. And I hope and believe that many of these would be successful according to the criteria of those involved in them.

    Personally, I’ve tried regular employment, and haven’t liked it. While, as said, some people will choose it before the alternatives, it isn’t something I would recommend.

    My own preference is for working as a sole trader. But except there would be no room for joint stock limited liability corporations, a free market has plenty of room for whatever forms of enterprise consenting adults may desire.

  • Paul Marks // 8 July, 2009 at 9:18 am

    Kevin Carson I did not mean to accuse you of not giving me a straight reply – you have been very clear in your hostility to large scale private property (limited liability or non limited liablilty) and in whatever time and place.

    My comment was about Sean Gabb – asking me sex questions (i.e. the “Do not think of an elephant” book tactic of trying to change the subject) when he had not first given me straight replies to my questions. Which were:

    Do you really believe that most prices charged by private companies are not the result of the market, but are “admistered” (i.e. just dreamed up by evil corporate managers) – or is this just Kevin Carson nonsense?

    And.

    Do you really believe that that there is “little competition” between most companies – or is this just Kevin Carson nonsense?

    As for the latest above comments:

    I again point out that denoucing limited liability is just a dodge.

    And an odd one to play – considering limited liability (let us please not play the diversion game of confusing the principle of limited liability with any particular statute) is the basis of churches, charities (including athiest ones) and COOPERATIVES.

    It is a bit odd to say “I am in favour of coops” and then denounce the very thing they are based on. How far a coop could get if every member was like a Lloyds “hame”, with nothing protected from commercial and tort action claims on the coop. By the way this would also have the knock on effect of destroying trade unions (although I might not burst into tears over that one).

    Still let that go – even if I accepted the case against limited liability (the principle – I am not talking about any particular stature, please see the Roman burial club memorial in York Minster , that club was not created by any 19th century statute) it would leave aside the most important things.

    Take the example of my home town – Kettering, Northamptonshire.

    Do not take now (a time of a massive state) – take the late 19th century.

    Kettering was a small government place back then – the people of the town even voted against an Education Board (it only came what it was forced on the town after the 1891 Act – I can cite statutes as well).

    Now some of the factories in the town were limited liability concerns (as the coop was also) and some were not.

    Does ANYONE think that Kevin Carson would have been any less hostile to the factory owners who were not limited liability enterprises than he would be to the enterprises who were limited liability?

    It is a dodge, a diversion tactic – and an obvious one.

    I even know what other tricks would be played.

    “You bought this land from someone who bought it from someone who…………. [many jumps later] got it from the Norman Conquest”

    And so on and so on. It is absurd – and as Kevin Carson is a very intelligent man I must assume he knows it is absurd.

    By the way quoting Ludwig Von Mises (the great defender of private factory owners and so on) in such a way as to suggest that he was hostile to them, is not nice (for the record Mises was doing one of his “I am a utilitarian, I am not interested in natural rights” things – very fashionable with people from all political points of view in the Vienna he was educated in – especially with people who were law students).

    Still “all is fair in politics” they say. Although Ludwig Von Mises would have done a lot more than “use red ink” (to take an example from Sean Gabb) on someone who, for example, supports credit money expansion – as Kevin Carson does.

    On False Flagism:

    Go into to a book store in the United States (or check on Amazon) and leading pro freedom books are there and selling very well.

    Thomas Sowell’s (non Austrian school) “Housing: Boom and Bust”, Thomas Woods (Austrian School) Meltdown, Glenn Beck’s “Common Sense”………

    And so on and so on. There are many such works.

    The movement for smaller government in the United States is a live movement – out trying to convince the general public.

    The movement in Britain is a movement that seems either dead or asleep – there is nothing much going on and has not been for decades. The Libertarian Alliance has made no real effort to reach out to people about stuff that matters (rather than, for example, whether incest should be a matter for the 1909 statute or should be covered under Common Law) – there is no great defence of free enterprise (indeed even the privitizations of the 1980’s are denounced as “phony” rather than the position being that they were good, but would have been better if there had not been regulation) and no denoucing of the credit money expansion of the Bank of England over recent years.

    I used to think this utter failure was just incompetance (for which I must take some of the blame – after all I used to go to meetings and conferences and so on). However, I have slowly come to the conclusion that it is not just incompetance.

    Say someone believed that all large scale private property (limited liability or not) was evil – why would that person be interested in defending it against the growing government?

    Why would they even be interested in debating the left – when, on this most basic principle, they agreed with the left.

    It should be obvious that I am not thinking of Kevin Carson here (he does not have the direct power over Libertarian Alliance affairs) I am thinking of people he has influenced – such as Sean Gabb.

    This is why such things as the Libertarian Alliance have been basically taking a rest from the great debate of our time in recent years – because key people (such as yourself Sean) have come to agree with the enemy on the most basic point – the point about large scale private property. And, therefore, (quite logically – I admit that) do not oppose the left on this most basic point. The point upon which the future existance or collapse of civilization rests. And, again please, let us not pretend that civilization can go back to a pre industrial stage (and even in that stage England depended on large farming estates – things Kevin Carson likes no better than he does factories).

    Perhaps “False Flagism” was too harsh as it implies dishonesty – but the basic point is valid.

    What should be a leading group opposing the left and supporting books such as those of Sowell and Woods that I mention above (indeed writing its own books on the British angle in all this) is nothing of the kind.

    In the great crises of our age it is of no help at all. To be fair, it can be no help at all – if its leading members are to be true to what they now believe. But that does not alter the fact that pro free market people are wasting their time by having anything to do with the L.A. now.

    A point against myself (for example the time I have spent writing these comments) of course – but there we go.

    Hopefully things like the Samizdata blog are doing some good and will do more over time (in promoting real free market books for example), we shall have to see. But so much time has been wasted on old tactics and organizations – by me as much as by anyone else.

  • Víctor L. // 8 July, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Many thanks for your answer, Sean.

    I agree with Kevin in this issue, but i respect your opinion.

    Your preference for sole traders makes me suspect you are a romantic who, as an english historian, desires to return to the times of anglos and saxons, when peasants owned bocklands and craftmen worked in small scale factories, rather than to desire a working class empowerment as a whole, like Kevin Carson.

    Although the two views are compatible.

    Regards.

  • Dr Sean Gabb // 9 July, 2009 at 12:39 am

    I don’t think in terms of empowering the working class. What I want is to live in a world where individuals have as much control over their own lives as possible. These two things may mean the same. But we are from different traditions that haven’t yet merged.

  • Paul Marks // 10 July, 2009 at 8:53 am

    To be fair to Sean Gabb – a “sole trader” can be a very large operation.

    In what I wrote above I pointed out that in the late 19th century (indeed later than that) some of the factories in Kettering were not limited liability operations. In short Sean Gabb (unlike Kevin Carson on this point) would not have been their enemy.

    That is a difference in their positions that I should have made clear – and did not (for that I apologize).

    Indeed if one defines “sole trader” as one person owning 100% of an enterprise one could even claim that the Ford Motor Company in the 1930’s was a “sole trader” as Henry Ford (tired of being taken to court by minority shareholders) had bought out all other share owners.

    I think what Sean is saying (on this point) is “Henry Ford should have taken the final step and formally renounced limited liability – thus getting rid of the legal division between his personal assets and those of the enterprise he owned 100% of the shares of”.

    Whilst that would have run the risk of Henry Ford being reduced to a begger in the street if things went wrong with the Ford Motor company I think (in that time and place – although not generally) I would have agreed with Sean Gabb.

    There is a special reason for this – the Ford Motor company was under massive attack from the Feds (via their proxy the United Auto Workers union), and had the company “gone private” (i.e. just been people working for Henry Ford – no longer been the “Ford Motor Company”) the legal position would have been better for the struggle.

    World War II (when the government ended the attack by withdrawing the backing for the U.A.W.) obscured the basic point that Henry Ford LOST the struggle in the 1930’s. He accepted collective bargaining and the rest of the principles the U.A.W. was demanding – and slowly but surely this loss has undermined the company over the following decades. As it has so much else of manufacturing industry (and not just in the car industry).

    He should have gone the other way – gone private (yes risking being reduced to being a begger on the street) to have a better chance of keeping control of his own enterprise.

    Although, I admit, it is less difficult to advise someone else to do that than to do it oneself – I doubt I would have had the courage.

    Of course a Man of Kent (as Sean Gabb is) can hardly accept the “Norman Conquest” point either. As Kent did not have “Norman land law” till the 1920’s .

    Nor is it just Kent – a Saxon family lost their estate in Staffs (which they had held since clearing the land of wolves) only last year. Losing an estate that had been held in spite of more than a thousands years of trials and tribulations (losing it due to failed business deal) – still “Man is as wolf to man”, as the family motto puts it.

    But Kevin Carson would simply move the position from the Norman Conquest to the invasions of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, or to the pre Roman Celtic migrations (or whatever).

    Of course the genetic markers for (for example) the people in the Cheddar Gorge area of Somerset show that the local farmers (who are free holders) are the same stock as bodies discoved in the area that are five thousand years old.

    But I am sure that Kevin Carson would find a way round that one – perhaps that the farmers only deserve the value of the “improvment to the land” rather than the land itself.

    As for “empowering the working class”:

    The “Middletown” studies (undertaken by two socialist, indeed Marxist influenced, sociologists – so hardly people with a free market bias) show that real American workers reject this stuff.

    And I think there are still more people in that town in Indiana on the private property side of the great struggle of our time than there are on the “empowering the working class” side.

    And if almost total leftist control of the media (everything from the nightly news to Hollywood movies) for decades has not changed the basic values of Americans (after all even Barack Obama has to hide what he is – rather than boast about it), they are not going to change in this.

    Look at the book sales – far more people are buying the pro free market books, than are buyng the collectivist ones.

  • Paul Marks // 10 July, 2009 at 9:20 am

    Of course the real failure of the left is not collapsing Hollywood and declining newspapers and television networks – it is the education system.

    Almost total control of the schools and colleges (for example with Bill Ayers “social justice” stuff being the texts in the teacher training colleges) and most people come out of school and, even, college still knowing (in their gut) that this Progressive stuff is nonsense.

    That is one of the two reasons that, in the end, the left are going to lose.

    The other reason is the Ludwig I-do-not-care-about-this-abstract -right-and-wrong-stuff Von Mises one (although I believe that Mises contradicted his formal position with his own life – a life in which a passionate commitment to personal honour rather went against his formal utilitarianism).

    The leftist economics does not work. More Progressive intervention (more social justice, such as the Community Reinvestment Act and so on and so son) just makes worse the terrible things that Progressive interventions created in the first place.

    Eventually people understand (for example) not only that the person they elected to “get government spending under control” has vastly increased government spending, but also that the increases have made things worse.

    Then they start to ask other questions – for example if he really values “charity – helping others” why he gave hardly any of his own (large) income to charity before he started to run for President.

    The cover up and agit-prop campaign by the mainstream media (and the education system) is going to break down.

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