The Libertarian Alliance: BLOG

SHOULD BRITAIN LEAVE THE EU? … UPDATED … and of course NO REFERENDUM on the (not Lisbon Treaty) EU CONSTITUTION … SO now what? Protest is useless, and the alternatives are …

6 March, 2008 · 9 Comments

…. worse, in the short term.

David Davis

Libertarians of the world must be gnashing their teeth at the charade in Parliament yesterday, in which an amendment to put the Lisbon Treaty EU Constitution to a national referendum was lost. The entire political history and culture of the Mother Nation of individual freedom as a counterwight to tyranny (can you name one other for me?) is being obliterated. The MPs are voting to give away sovereignty leased temporarily to them, which is not their to give.

Here’s how they voted: (NB I have NOT listed the abstainers yet, which I predict would have made the vote closer if (most of) them had voted in line with their private beliefs or those of their electors!)

NB: Abstainers are now listed at the end of the post.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=F11&blog=yourview&xml=/news/2008/03/05/view05.xml&posted=true&_requestid=416981 THE PEOPLE ARE VERY ANGRY, FEEL FREE TO DISTRIBUTE THIS TO THE WORLD  From the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation MPs WHO SUPPORTED THEIR PARTY INSTRUCTIONS
186 Conservative MPs supported the Conservative proposal
308 Labour MPs opposed the proposal
50 Liberal Democrat MPs did not vote on the proposal
29 LABOUR MPs SUPPORTED THE TORY PROPOSAL
Colin Burgon (Elmet)
Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley)
Frank Cook (Stockton North)
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North)
John Cummings (Easington)
Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West)
David Drew (Stroud)
Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe & Nantwich)
Frank Field (Birkenhead)
Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent Central)
Roger Godsiff (Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath)
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North)
Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley)
Lynne Jones (Birmingham Selly Oak)
John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington)
David Marshall (Glasgow East)
Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby)
Anne Moffat (East Lothian)
George Mudie (Leeds East)
Denis Murphy (Wansbeck)
Alan Simpson (Nottingham South)
Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Graham Stringer (Manchester Blackley)
Gisela Stuart (Birmingham Edgbaston)
David Taylor (Leicestershire North West)
Paul Truswell (Pudsey)
Robert Wareing (Liverpool West Derby)
Mike Wood (Batley & Spen)

13 LIB DEM MPs SUPPORTED THE TORY PROPOSAL
Annette Brooke (Dorset Mid & Poole North)
Alistair Carmichael (Orkney & Shetland)
Tim Farron (Westmorland & Lonsdale)
Andrew George (St Ives)
Sandra Gidley (Romsey)
Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South)
David Heath (Somerton & Frome) John Hemming (Birmingham Yardley)
Paul Holmes (Chesterfield)
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham)
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West)
John Pugh (Southport)
Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge)

THREE TORY MPs OPPOSED THE TORY PROPOSAL
Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe)
David Curry (Skipton & Ripon)
John Gummer (Suffolk Coastal)

20 OTHER MPs SUPPORTED THE TORY PROPOSAL
Gregory Campbell (DUP, Londonderry East)
Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)
William McCrea (DUP, Antrim South)
Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)
David Simpson (DUP, Upper Bann)
Sammy Wilson (DUP, Antrim East) Derek Conway (Independent Conservative, Old Bexley & Sidcup)
Dai Davies (Independent, Blaenau Gwent)
Respect the Unity Coalition: George Galloway (Independent, Bethnal Green & Bow)
Ulster Unionist Party: Lady Sylvia Hermon (Independent, Down North)
Stewart Hosie (SNP, Dundee East)
Angus MacNeil (SNP, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Angus Robertson (SNP, Moray)
Alex Salmond (SNP, Banff & Buchan)
Mike Weir (SNP, Angus)
Pete Wishart (SNP, Perth & Perthshire North)
Elfyn Llwyd (Plaid Cymru, Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East & Dinefwr)
Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru, Caernarfon)
Dr Richard Taylor (Independent Kidderminster Hospital and Health Concern, Wyre Forest)

OTHER MPs WHO DID NOT VOTE ON THE PROPOSAL
Two Conservative
14 Labour
Eight from other parties
Two Conservative MPs and two Labour MPs were tellers for the two sides, counting MPs as they voted

Posted by Jonathan Lloyd on March 6, 2008 12:02 AM  2THE REAL GORDON BROWN THE ONE EYED SERPENTJohn Corfield 7:30Brown ” a devious , nasty, liar “.From personal experience here, North of the Border, Brown hasn’t changed since we were both in student politics , when his dishonesty was legendary.

If he runs true to form, he will be emboldened. Expect even worse to come.
Posted by Tam on March 6, 2008 9:01 AM
  3THE REAL PEOPLEQuestion to BrownMy Dad was a quiet and reserved gentleman who took up arms to preserve the life and freedoms of England for his future generations. My uncle spent 4 years in a Japanese prison of war camp and had his achiles tendons slashed for trying to escape (his life was shortened by that experience). Five of my other uncles also fought in the second world war for the same reasons. One of my Aunt got caught up in this aand became one of the ‘Tenko’ women and her only son was born while on the march.Why?That is why I will never forgive you.
Posted by Jill on March 5, 2008 9:11 PM  I have included sundry stuff attached to the bottom, to illustrate to readers around the world who may not be “au fait” with the local detail, how people feel about this matter.

Perhaps all advanced civilisations in the Universe get to this point, which could be why I think there aren’t any. Please link to “The most astonishing video you will ever see”, on this site in december archives, and to here where you can also see it on Devil’s Kitchen.

And here are the abstainers:

LABOUR - Diane Abbott, John Battle, Ann Cryer, Paul Flynn, Neil Gerrard, Patrick Hall, Glenda Jackson, Ian McCartney, John MacDougall, John Prescott, Ian Stewart, Rudi Vis, Claire Ward, Tony Wright.
TORY
John Maples and Ian Taylor
OTHERS
Jeffrey Donaldson, Ian Paisley, Iris Robinson, Mark Durkan, Alisdair McDonnell, Eddie McGrady, Andrew Pelling, Clare Short.
24 MPs in total.


I hope these MPs will feel as much of a backlash as those who voted in favour of the treaty!

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9 responses so far ↓

  • Tony Hollick // 6 March, 2008 at 5:18 pm

    My understanding of our Constitution is that no Parliament can bind a future Parliament. I’m not sure that referenda can have any binding efect at all.

    If at any future time a British Parliament decides that Britain will no longer be a partner in the EU, that’s it. What is the EU to do? Send in troops?? Whose troops? It would also be an attack on a NATO member.

    I’m happy about being a European. I’m not so happy with the way our gutless legislatures put all the “nasty” measures through the EU, to escape responsibility.

    Europe’s total GNP now exceeds that of the US, by quite a margin. Frankly, I’m more concerned by all the authoritarian “criminal-justice” and ‘false-flag’ “War on Terror” and phony “War on Drugs” crap being foisted on us by the Goddamn US authoritarians, who pipeline the filthy stuff straight into the “Home Office.”

    RIGHT NOW, IN THE UK, you can be arrested without charge or access to a lawyer, deported without due process to the USA, there to be confined indefinitely without charge, publicity or access to anyone. I’ve been threatened with this directly by Gil Kerlikowske, Chief of the Seattle Police. I laughed… Would you?

    It’s not Brussells doing that to us, brothers and sisters. It’s the Goddamn US “Department of Justice.” And they used their sock-puppet Blair to railroad it through in the dying moments of his increasingly authoritarian premiership.

    There are more than one in every hundred Americans incarcerated in the US right now. A total of 5.6 _million_ souls are enmeshed in the aptly-named US “criminal justice system.”

    Compare that with 82,000 imprisoned here; and that’s over _twice_ the European average.

    It doesn’t take a weather-man to know which way this particular breeze is blowing.

    Regards,

    Tony

  • sinblancaporelmundo // 14 March, 2008 at 4:43 am

    Socialism is death.

    http://sinblancaporelmundo.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/una-imagen-una-palabra/

  • sinblancaporelmundo // 14 March, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    I beg your pardon. The Mother Nation of individual freedom is not Britain, is Spain.

    The economical and individual freedom begun with the teachings of the School of Salamanca in the 16th century, I´m afraid, sir.

  • David Davis // 14 March, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    I take your point. That is OK.

    However, how then do you explain the (in practice) quite free societies of the Anglosphere - at least until stalinism got its teeth into our ankles via pests like Gramsci etc, in the 20th Century?

    I suppose what I am saying is then, “why did Spain not bear the torch of individual freedom and libertarianism to the world from the 1500s onwards?”

    In the interim I do of course forgive Spain the interregnum of the early 1800s, when she was under the heel of the fascist pig Napoleon.

  • David Davis // 14 March, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    I do of course agree with you, that socialism is death.

    However, this is not yet widely recognised in the UK, since we have not until now experienced it in its full horror, and my libertarian colleagues would regard such a statement as rather one-dimensional and shallow.

  • David Davis // 14 March, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Ragther, in fact, as if I was the editor of The Sun (a newspaper, some would call it.)

  • sinblancaporelmundo // 15 March, 2008 at 9:26 am

    Well, that´a a good question.

    I suppose we were under the heel of a catholic monarchy that spent all of its time and money on saving the souls of the European protestants.

    Yes, I suppose you were quite lucky not experimenting socialism in its full horror. We had that in the times of the II Republic and the Civil War in Spain and that was terrible enough

    Unfortunately there are still people in Spain who does not want to learn from the lessons of the past and still have voted for z in the last election. That´s really depressing.

  • David Davis // 15 March, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    I don’t know what you will be able to do about that. Is there a Libertarian Party in Spain - or, at the very least, a “conservative” kind of grouping that is minimal-statist? If so, what are its chances?

    As you can see, I am very much now in favour of Libertarian Parties, although this is not the position of the Libertarian Alliance personally as an organisation.

    Happily, the LA is content to let me promote other ones on this blog, for now.

  • Ian B (1) // 15 March, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    The question of parties is interesting. I’ve said here before that I don’t think parties can create political change; the constituency for whatever political idea needs to exist first so that it can vote the party into power. If we look at Britain, the only new party to break through was the Labour Praty, (the Tories and Whigs having sort of arisen like mushrooms out of the mulch of the elite as factions), and Labour did that because they were the political wing of a much broader movement- trades unions, socialists, co-operative societies and so on. Once those social structures had arisen, the average poor worker, a member of a trade union, who socialised at the working mens’ club, shopped at the co-op and so on would find it very difficult to vote for anybody else.

    Not dissimilar to Islamic groups in the mid-east building political support out of the provision of social structures such as schools and local healthcare etc.

    So while I’ll do what I can to support the LPUK and vote for them if they put up a candidate in my constituency, in truth I can’t see them ever being more than a fringe party without some kind of social power base and I’m not sure where one can even imagine that would come from.

    Besides all else, the days of local solutions to social problems that a political movement can step into and use “for their own ends” are over; the state provides everything now.

    My old upper school was demolished recently and replaced by a horrid Blair Academy. It’s run by a religious group. I’d rather it was being run by a Libertarian group. Perhaps that’s the way forward.

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